Microsoft Hopes Windows 9 Will Win Over Desktop Users

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relaxed911

I'm a PC enthusiast. I've been building PCs since the 90s, which has evolved into all-out, water-cooled powerhouses. As anyone who builds water-cooled systems will tell you, you need to do your homework and pick the best, most advanced and compatible hardware at the time of build as disassembly after the fact is reserved only as a last resort. I've used MS software from Dos to nearly every iteration of the OS, sans a couple outliers like Server 2003 and ME. Since my hardware (and software) has always been up to date, I've experienced few issues - even with Vista.

Windows8, on the other hand, has been a complete clusterf**k of epic proportions. From a half-baked implementation of a new UI to basic things like non-IE browsers not working at all after installation, the consumer experience has been a textbook example of how short-sighted executives and uninspired engineers can sabotage reputation and legacy for the pursuit of profit. Even after all the updates and patches and their sad attempt at reverting back to the Coke classic of start buttons, both the user experience and the underlying code is hopelessly disparate and flawed. From an entirely too often inability to wake up from a sleep state to ctrl-alt-del not responding at all when programs freeze to poor implementations of Windows "apps" that remain open in the background, Microsoft has coerced consumers to pay for the privilege of being guinea pigs to an OS that was in its beta stages at best. They monopolized on the regained trust and cache of their Windows7 wins and essentially took advantage of their brand loyalists.

If Windows9, sans Steve Ballmer, is the flawless execution that it has to be to remain relevant, Microsoft should learn from the likes of Apple and provide the upgrade for free, especially to those with Windows8 licenses that have endured the beta testing headaches for their benefit since its premature launch.

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Renegade Knight

In spite of 8 being more stable and faster than 7, I agree that the marriage of a touch OS with 7 (aka Desktop ) resulted in some kludgy interface issues that MS has been improving on.

The marriage regardless of the implementation is the right direction for them to go. Now it's just a matter of figuring out the interface.

I've had none of the issues you report. Chrome and Firefox have always worked. Cntl-Alt-Del works as well as it did in 7 which is to say, not quite as well as I would like but better than XP. Never had an issue with sleep states. Recalled Alt-F4 and never had a problem with windows apps staying open. The addition of X like Desktop solved the remaining issue for those with touchscreens. The start button was it's own problem and the start screen approach is actually better and easier to work with.

I have my own concerns with Metro and where they may go with 9 or 10 in the future but we shall see.

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relaxed911

Mileage always varies so I can't say everyone's experience has been disastrous. However, you can't ignore the tidal wave of complaints that have come with the OS. Everyone praised Windows7 because it simply worked.
I think you bring up an interesting point when you say that "regardless of the implementation is the right direction for them to go." This IS the underlying problem with MS and will continue to be their downfall if they don't get their house in order. The focus can't be on what's best for them, but what's best for the consumer. They serve us and, without us, there would be no them.

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Micker99

I really like Windows 8, after installing classic shell. The only problem 8 had, was it's interface. I mean it's like an egg hunt trying to find hidden menus and items. How would someone know that the upper left corner brings up open apps or there is a hidden menu on the right of the screen etc.. How much more efficient does it get then booting to a desktop and clicking a shortcut to the program you want??

It would have taken a 12yr old to straighten out Windows 8 and make it a big hit. Absolutely NO idea why Microsoft couldn't see that adding the classic start button and booting to desktop would solve 90% of the issues and hate toward the product. Were they really that stubborn?? Such a good product, wasted by a STUPID marketing idea.

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Renegade Knight

That's one of my bigger gripes about 8. Some of the power user tools and functions are harder to find. They are still there but not as easy to find.

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DR_JDUBZ

sticking with win7 until end of useful life, then probably will switch to ubuntu or some other linux distro.......unless windows 9 can make me breakfeast

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ohsnaps1104

Look it's not that Windows 8 is bad, it's just a small collection of big foul-ups that make the OS terrible to use. First and foremost, the "modern UI" was designed as a touch screen UI and marketed towards the masses when the general masses have no touch screens, thus making the OS difficult to use for those people. Two, "Modern UI" has precedence over desktop mode. Gestures on a track-pad can cause the UI to pop-up over the desktop, even over the control panel. Why have a desktop mode if I can't even use it? What is "Windows" without windows? Third, Windows update has not been "updated" since Vista. It's slow and your machine reboots about 5 times for every update, even in W7. Fourth, "Modern UI" is a blatant resource wasting mess of icons with hidden menus and confusing labels, period. Lastly, this one Killed 8 for me, it literally sent me over the edge. Why in the name of Cheese Curds are they trying to force to me sign-up for an online account just to use my PC? What is this, I didn't order a "Chrome book". The link to create a "local account" is hidden. I wouldn't be so ticked if they gave me a straight forward option, online or offline. I swear if they don't bring back the regular desktop in W9 I will stick with 7 until I have to buy an Apple, at least they don't jack their customers over with weird experimental junk.

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Renegade Knight

Never had a problem with a Metro app on a desktop. The only hard thing was remembering Alt-F4 to close them.

I'm with you on the online account. You can work around it but they don't make it easy. They force to do sign up if you are going to use Sky Drive. It's also what Apple makes you do.

Don't hold your breath on Apple though. Apple is going to have the same temptation to monetize their OS users as Microsoft is starting to pursue.

Leaving Desktop behind would leave me with a lot of stranded software. It would be a great way to cost them a lot of customers.

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john.kish@exede.net

Does anybody else hear the voice of Sheldon from Big Bang Theory when they read the posts from Granite?

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Hey.That_Dude

OMG! YES! The comments he makes about how M$ would make a better iPod than apple and it would gain wide acceptance (ZUNE...so sad your fate).

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jbitzer

Sadly though, the zune was better than the ipod when released. The software was worlds better than itunes too, until they screwed it all up with 2.0.

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HarryMannbach

I truly wish I could understand all of the hate directed at Windows 8, but I just can't get there. I'm no fanboy for Microsoft by any means, in fact I tend to spread my computing experience across the spectrum. The fact remains though, that Windows 8 is simply an improved version of Windows 7 when it comes to the technical underpinnings of the OS. It does everything better and with more stability. I don't understand why Metro gets the hate that it gets. You don't even need to use it. Install the desktop versions of programs; don't use the Windows store; take the 10 minutes of Googling that is required to familiarize yourself with the navigational paradigm. At the end of the day you will have an OS that runs, boots, indexes and shuts down more smoothly than any of the recent iterations of Windows and you'll be happier for it. Things are going to change. That is a fact of life. Better to learn to work with new things than dig your heels in and say "NO! I hate this!" and focus on the things you don't like when there is so much more to be found. Case in point: the start screen is just about the best way to organize and make available a large amount of program shortcuts for easy access. I can set up a section for all my creative programs, a section for my current gaming addictions, a section for social and productivity applications and organize them all as i see fit. Are we really going to complain about colors and aesthetics and condemn and entire OS because it doesn't jive with your personal preferences for palette or style? I will grant that the OS isn't perfect, but really when have we seen one that is?

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pentiuman

A lot of the Win8 hate is surely justified! True, I haven't actually tried it out, - I have only read about the screwup OS, but hey, I don't have to eat dirt to know it tastes bad! Fairly experienced Users (or better) going to a new version of Windows should not have great difficulties doing routine things. So, the fact that they have troubles shows Microsoft strayed too far from established procedures. The Win8 experiment is a near failure. A desktop PC (that doesn't have a touch monitor) has different needs than a laptop, tablet, or other device. Ignoring a fact so central as this leaves many Users struggling to compute. Now, maybe Win8 is just ahead of their time, and with other hardware changes, like more voice recognition, one unified OS will work sometime in the future, but for now, there's too many differences in devices, hardware, and how we use them.

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ApathyCurve

No, Eddie! I clearly saw you in bed with that tablet! The Jedi mind trick isn't going to work.

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Renegade Knight

I like 8. What I would like to see in 9 is that they fix the things they did break about 7. A lot of the power user features are harder to find. Actually I want them to fix that in 8. I don't care to see Windows trying to force an upgrade cycle of every 2 years.

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Carlidan

yeah, every two years seems kinda stupid. But I understand why they are doing it. They are a software company. Oses are part of their bread and butter. :(

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Neufeldt2002

I'm going to wait to see what Steam OS brings to the table. More than likely I will dual boot Win 7 with a Linux distro of some sort.

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wolfing

If you look at my comment history, you'll probably find that I was one of those who hated Windows 8 with a passion and was not shy to say so in every Windows 8 article here. Well, that changed a few months ago when my company decided to switch all IT's computers to Windows 8 (8.1). I sent an email to my boss telling him (in nice words) how he could go to hell. So I got Windows 8 in my business computer. It was already set up to boot to desktop, then I installed Classic Shell and ... I liked it. I never see the 'formerly known as Metro' interface which I still hate, but to me it's like it doesn't exist. It boots much faster, and everything still works like when it was Windows 7, so win-win.

Recently I bought a new laptop that came with Windows 8. If you asked me a few months ago I would say 'pfft! yeah right Windows 8' and I would have formatted the drive and installed Windows 7 without even turning it on and see. And that's the laptop I'm using to post this, with Windows 8 and Classic Shell... perfectly happy with it.

I wouldn't upgrade a Windows 7 computer to Windows 8 unless it was like free, but given the choice between W7 or W8 for a new computer, I would choose W8 now (with Classic Shell of course).

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Renegade Knight

I've made peace with Metro recognizing that the Start Screen (aka Metro) replaces the start menu well enough. I even like Metro for tablet use. Once I made my peace I recognized 2 things. 1) I didn't need to upgrade from 7. However 8s desktop mode was faster and more stable than 7, and 7 remains pretty good.

So no reason to upgrade without touch but no reason to downgrade back to 7 on a new system.

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jgrimoldy

I agree with you, Wolfing. My first exposure to 8.0 was not a comfortable one. It was maddeningly difficult (unintuitive) to switch between the desktop and Metro modes. This was on a desktop PC.

I have an Asus Transformer TA100w with Windows 8.1. I gotta say, I really like it. It's easy to switch between the Desktop and Metro modes, and the Metro is much less cumbersome when using as a tablet. The Metro Internet Explorer is great (except for reloading entire pages when going back).

I'd never advocate someone upgrate from 7 to 8.1. If they have no choice, I'll counsel them that it doesn't suck as badly as they think it will. For those on XP, I will stronlgy advise to upgrade to Win7.

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JosephColt

A lot of this Windows 8 hate is unjustified. I've been using Windows 8 since release day with Start8 and it's the best Windows yet.

Metro is great for tablets, especially on a surface, and I believe it should just be a feature called "tablet mode" that is enabled if you are using a full fledged copy on a tablet.

Of course too no one should just upgrade an OS unless they have too. If you have 7 stick with it, if not get 8.

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JosephColt

Edit: Triple Post

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JosephColt

Edit: Triple post? That's a new one.

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maxeeemum

More rumors about Win9! Time will tell but it better be a desktop OS. It must be superior to Win7 not a step back like 8. Unfortunately I still see words like Start Screen, Live Tiles, Windows Store, Apps, etc. Maybe this and that???

I have a feeling Microsoft will disappoint again and most of us will be on 7 for the next 5 years or so till M$ finally gets it. Looking like Win11 to me!

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Granite

Actually, Win8 IS superior to Win7.

But that's okay. You can go ahead and wait for Win11. Then you can be like all those losers who are hanging on to XP.

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BlazePC

"Wrong, Windows 7 interface is factually superior to Win 8's."

This ONE statement sums up the entire back & forth in this comment stream. Awwwwtwism screams "fact" from the bowels of the parents basement because in reality, change is incredibly painful to the seemingly awwwtwistic. Bash your head against the wall much ?

Win 8 haters gonna hate.
And the XP fanbois are a thin but lively crowd, hanging on for dear life.

I'd say, GTFU or GTFO !
Win 8.1 Pro Update 1 is solid.

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maxeeemum

Feel the love Granite!!!

Most know here that Granite spends way too much time on the M$ website or works for them. I don't have a problem with his or anyones defense of 8.

In the real world Windows 8 is nothing more then an advertising platform to sell Windows Phone and tablets. If you don't see it that's OK.

Bottom line is M$ wants to be Apple to the general public and M$ to business??? But it's not working. PC users are not Apple sheep!

Something to read:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9249514/Windows_8_uptake_sags_flirts_with_flop

http://www.cnet.com/news/windows-xp-still-alive-and-kicking-among-desktop-users/?tag=nl.e703&s_cid=e703&ttag=e703&ftag=CAD090e536

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Granite

My experience shows me that when someone says, "Most know..." or "Everyone knows...", the fact is that person "doesn't know" and pretty much everything they say is something they've pulled out of their ass.

Kind of like you did here when you gave those links. I mean, "Computerworld"? "cnet"? Seriously?

LOL!!

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maxeeemum

Most here know you know it all! Just ask Granite!

But Stats are Stats! Doesn't matter who or how they are posted!

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Neufeldt2002

I would say that Win 8 is better in some area's but far from superior to 7, with the proviso that one is using a modified version of 8.

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EdgeTrigger

LOL, Granite you empty egg shell headed troll.

Windows 8 is for children

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Granite

Yeah, yeah...when you got nothing, you always can resort to insults.

You can do anything on Win8 that you can do on Win7...and more...except use that useless eye-candy known as Aero and that useless Start Menu. (though MS and others have you covered if you just HAVE to have a Start Menu)

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Neufeldt2002

Granite said "Yeah, yeah...when you got nothing, you always can resort to insults."

So, calling people losers isn't an insult then?

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Granite

The difference is, I directed my "loser" remark at a general group of people...not at any one individual. I also made a valid point that was ignored...hence my judgment that the person who insulted me "had nothing".

Now...if any individual takes exception to my general remark about people being losers, I see that as a personal problem with that individual. I can't help it if that person identifies them self as being a loser and doesn't like it.

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Neufeldt2002

Okay, so then anyone who doesn't agree with you on tech issues is put in a group that you call loser? The difference here is that you are still resorting to an insult thus nullifying your argument according to what you just said.

You can take what I said above and try to see the point I am making, or ignore it. Most likely I am already in your "loser" group, but I just don't care. Take it or leave it, makes no difference to me. Anything more on this is just not worth the effort.

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Granite

1. You obviously don't spend much time talking to people. If you did, then you would know that a strawman argument is pretty much useless when talking to someone with average intelligence. Unfortunately for you, I am a bit above average intelligence.

2. The only point I see you attempting to make is that you want to whine and cry when someone says something you don't like. I expect that more from a child.

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jbitzer

You know what? Granite is absolutely right about win 8 being better than 7, technically.

However, if I have to use third party addons to modify your product the way I like it, as I have to in win 8 to get rid of the siezure inducing ugly "Vomited a bag of skittels on to my screen" look of metro, thenyou have a problem.

A lot of people like the start menu, because you don't doesn't make it useless.

And people call YOU, granite, names, not because they are out of valid points, or are arguing a straw man, but because you come off as an incredible fucking asshole.

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Granite

I'm an asshole because I state facts and opinions??

Okay. I'll bet you have a lot of fun on forums.

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jbitzer

your first post on this article:

then you can be like all those losers who are hanging on to XP.

Why are they losers? Are you like an apple fan that must throw away the old and immediately buy the new?

your insistence that something is wrong with people for having a preference of an older version's style over a complete change and those who are unhappy need to get with the times in condescending and comes off as an asshole.

Your constant cheer leading for MS in any post that mentions windows 8 makes you come off as a shill. Your personal need to leap to the defense of win 8 whenever someone doesn't hail it as the second coming of Christ of OSes, is just as annoying as Bullwinkle's constant need to mention it's a spyware platform full of face raping robots, just waiting for the MS kill command to leap out and take over the world.

Though you offering him the imaginary dollars was pretty great.

You treat people as defective for having an opinion. I don't like win 8's user interface. I do like it if I'm not forced to use shitty, ugly, has to be manually organized so it doesn't put 800 READ MEs in my start screen every time I install software interface. I'm also not a fan of how when I move my files to my D: drive and set the default install location in the registry to D:\Program Files, it breaks windows update.

Now tell me how I'm stupid and old fashioned for wanting a desktop with a menu of programs as opposed to a hodgepodge screen I have to manually organize?

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Granite

Reading comprehension will do wonders for you. You should gain some.

My "loser" comment was in reference to hanging on to an outdated and security defective OS like XP holdouts are doing...and as the person I was talking to would be doing by waiting for Win11.

I don't constantly "cheer" Win8. I express what I like about it and what I don't care about it. I also dispute factually incorrect statements...such as Win8 not being superior to Win7.

I have nothing against people having opinions. But if your opinion is based on some dumbass, incorrect facts don't be surprised if I set you straight.

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jbitzer

I don't constantly "cheer" Win8. I express what I like about it and what I don't care about it. I also dispute factually incorrect statements...such as Win8 not being superior to Win7.

Wrong, Windows 7 interface is factually superior to Win 8's. Otherwise, MS wouldn't have had to piecemeal it back in to sell copies. Win 7 didn't install every file in a software package's folder in your start menu in a giant unorganized mess. If a program had 30 ancillary files, they were organized into a folder, alpahbetically sorted, in the start menu, with new folders highlighted. Win 8 on the other hand just throws all those files into a blob on your screen in order of install.

The user experience for windows 8 was inferior, because MS didn't think a short tutorial for a completely new way of doing things was necessary until several months in, after people refused to buy the OS because of it.

You can make the most technically sound and efficient automobile that will never wear out or break down, but if people have to sit in a pile of broken glass to drive it, you aren't going to be selling many of them,

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Granite

Win8's desktop mode is the same as Win7...with a few minor changes, such as dumping that useless Start Button. For those of you who can't live without it, there are add-ons from other companies and MS will soon give back your crutch. But, Win8 has the added usefulness of the tile interface. I'd say that makes Win8 superior to Win7 because you get all of the usefulness of Win7 and more.

You must not have used Win8. Tiles are placed on the Start Screen, but they are not every single file on your drive. Just major ones. The rest are available...in a nice, organized fashion...by clicking the down arrow on the Start Screen. It is all quite orderly.

Yes...MS didn't "teach" people about the Start Screen. That was their error. But that doesn't make the Start Screen or the desktop difficult to use...for most people, that is...just the ones who weren't smart enough to find the instruction they needed. MS learned from their mistake and corrected it. Problem solved and you can stop dredging that canard up out of the mud.

People who make analogies between an OS and a car are grasping at straws and coming up with the short straw.

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jbitzer

Yes, I've used win 8. I'm using it now. Like I said, I shouldn't have to get a third party addon to bring basic functionality back to my machine. And the 3 or 4 step shutdown was priceless too.

If the start button and menu are so useless like you keep trying to convince everyone of, then why do so many addons exist? Why is MS having to bring it back? Oh, it's because you can't separate fact from opinion. The start button is not useless.
the Start screen is ugly, ungainly, and very disorganized.

Reading comprehension jackass, I didn't say every single file on my drive, I said every file from a program install, for example, I have 3 separate links for my WD cloud drive on my start screen and 2 from herolab right now taking up valuable real estate, rather than grouping them together in a folder, Win8 just thinks "hey, I want every fucking last component of this program I'll rarely use junking up my interface" I spent 2 hours clearing the start screen from the extra bullshit my pc came with, but it looks like you get to do that after every software install too. Not to mention software that runs as a service, or at startup, I really want to wade through icons I'll NEVER click in order to get to useful apps.

I also love that without modernmix, I can't just have the default mail open and on screen while doing something else, because apparently MS forgot the definition of fucking window when designing your one true love of an OS.

I won't mention that it looks ugly as fuck with a wonderful smattering of blue, orange, green and red icons over a purple background, because I can differentiate between personal taste and actual measurable usefulness. It's worth having a start menu just to be able to type the name of the program I want to run into the search bar without bringing up that Jackson pollock looking piece of shit start screen.

How about I'll make another car analogy: Win 8 is the edsel of OSes.

And that you dismiss all the arguments or flat out lied about the icons on start (or responded to a point I never stated, same thing I think) again goes to my point of why people call you names. You're a shilly troll.

If you feel like actually answering something I am posting, please tell me how you think the tile interface is oh so useful, because sadly, I want a computer, not a smartphone interface, I can look at my phone for any of the bullshit they put on tiles, if you are going to try to tell me you honestly pop over to the start screen to check the weather and news while you're working at your computer, I think you shouldn't ever call anyone else stupid ever again.

OH, I almost forgot! It's great that you can get all of your control panel icons in tiles, but win8 doesn't want to group them together either! It's SOOOOO Much more convenient hunting for the one you want between photo editing apps and media players. Then there's the 2 different fantastic "settings" screens, the one that you have to go to just to not sign in to MSlive, passbook, or whatever the fuck they're calling it now, and the one that actually has the control panel in it.

I found the inspiration for the start screen:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fkfe4hrbe2Q/TdHieV4reaI/AAAAAAAAAPI/DruVNPIGNVI/s1600/Jackson%2BPollock4.jpg

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Granite

So...you went through this whole, long, boring rant just to tell me that you don't like the start screen...and that, because of your subjective opinion about it, the whole damned OS is a piece of shit.

To give you one of your "car analogies" that you like so much, that's like not liking a BMW because you don't happen to care for the upholstery.

I'm thinking you really are computer-challenged. All of those issues you went on and on about in your rant were easily dealt with...even back when it was just Win8. But no...just because you didn't like the colors of the tiles...because you didn't like the upholstery...to you, the whole OS is crap.

And then...and then, you have the nerve to insult me because I point out your hyperbolic, subjective...dare I say, idiotic...objections and express opinions of my own that are based on real-world experiences...not something I read.

It's okay. Don't worry. MS actually has you covered, dude. Stick with Win7. That'll hold you over until you are in the position the XP losers are in today.

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jbitzer

REally einstien? How to deal with the retarded metro apps taking up full screen? Oh wait, buy another $5 app to do it for me? Those are your solutions?

It's like you want to tell me your BMW is great, but I have to buy my own steering wheel.

And Metro compared to the upholstery is not even a valid comparison. METRO IS THE MAIN FUCKING INTERFACE, not the desktop background. To use your analogy, it would be not liking the car because they moved the entire instrument panel and dash to the back seat.

you're a fucking troll.

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Granite

LOL!!

You still haven't figured out that if you don't like the metro apps you don't have to use the metro apps. Heck, you don't even have to see that nasty old Start Screen if you don't want to.

No...you'd rather whine and cry about it for ever and ever. Now, that's just fricken pathetic, don't you think?

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jbitzer

Not as pathetic as all of your childish non answers. I see you are too stupid to comprehend the multiple mentions of start8 and modern mix I refer to on this very page. You don't win many arguments with your mommy about bedtime either do you?

Can you answer the question? I'm not holding my breath: what is it that makes metro so useful and the start menu useless? Can't even form a coherent thought about that I see. Don't worry, you'll get to learn how to present arguments backed with facts and notations when you get to highschool.

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Granite

Do you really care what I think? Or do you just want to be able to whine more? In any case, here's what I think:

Start Screen

1 Easy to personalize.
2. Easy access to great search function.
3. Tiles are easy to use and easy to modify and arrange.
4. Multiple methods of control and input depending on whether using k/m or touchscreen.

Start Button

Everything that is available on the Start Menu is readily available elsewhere resulting in no need to ever click on the thing.

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jbitzer

1 Easy to personalize.

Not important or useful. I could spend all month personalizing the start menu, but it doesn't add value to the computing experience, since it completely jars you out of whatever you're using. I guess if you were sitting down from sleep mode and it's the first thing you see, it provides data that could be useful, but if I want any of the horse shit from live tiles, I'll pop my phone out of my pocket, not sit down to my PC.

2. Easy access to great search function.

As opposed to Winkey and typing, Identical in win7

3. Tiles are easy to use and easy to modify and arrange.

Why? Gadgets were pointless and no one used them, MS solution: let's integrate them into the menu! I don't need to modify or arrange something that's providing me no value.

4. Multiple methods of control and input depending on whether using k/m or touchscreen.

Do not want a touch screen. How tedious lifting my hand off my mouse is. I can easily use windows hotkeys and a mouse with 7.

Your list is basically: A: nothing that win 7 didn't do, or B: Stuff no one used that was made part of the main interface rather than optional.

But hey, thanks for finally answering my question, your objective analysis of why start menu is useless and start screen is better is : Granite likes the new arrangement better than the old one.

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Granite

There you go with your faulty reading comprehension again. I didn't say I like the new arrangement better than the old one. I simply pointed out why the Start Screen is useful. The fact is, I don't use the tile interface very much...but I like having it there when I DO want to use it.

In any case, you haven't shown why the Start Screen is not useful. You just state that you don't like it. Just because YOU don't like the Start Screen, doesn't mean nobody else likes it...or shouldn't like it...as you seem to think. For those who do like the Win8 apps...who don't want to have to drag out their phones...the Start Screen is quite useful.

Bottom line: You have your opinion and I have mine. That's cool. But you seem to think EVERYONE has/should have your opinion. That's a rather foolish position to take, don't you think?