Maximum PC

elo231

yagisencho · Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject:

Let Microsoft know (calmly) how you feel about the prospect of buying a new Vista license every other time you rebuild your computer.

http://tinyurl.com/yjgycf

Edit by Will: fixed the long link...

dedgar · Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject:

You don't have to buy a new copy of Vista if you upgrade components of your existing system.

'Some changes to your computer
components or the software may require you to reactivate the software. The software will
remind you to activate it until you do.'

That is right out of the Vista EULA. That sez you can upgrade your computer and MAY have to reactivate. Not have to buy a new disk or license.
Where everyone is getting confused is in this part of the EULA:

"The first user of the software may reassign the license to another device one time. If you reassign the license, that other device becomes the "licensed device,"

That means that you can't take your copy of Vista and put it on a bunch of seperate computers. You could do that with XP and earlier versions. Vista will let you change over to a totally seperate, completely different computer, only once.
And then if you want to upgrade that computer you're covered under the other part of the EULA that I showed at the beginning.

yagisencho · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:32 am Post subject:

Define 'upgraded computer' versus 'completely different computer'. Upgrades typically happen over time. In my case, it was a part here and a part there over five years. My computer today shares only the floppy drive from the original one of five years ago. So is that considered an upgrade? Or a completely different computer?

I expect that I'll be able to simply reactivate Vista after single major component swaps. But what if I move everything over to a new motherboard/CPU/RAM combo? Is that a 'new device'?

screwballl · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:38 am Post subject:

DentedCan · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:08 am Post subject:

This entire conversation is EXACTLY what people were freaking out about when the XP activation mechanism was first introduced. Fast forward several years and I think it's apparent the concern was all overblown. Microsoft is not going to make anyone buy a new license because they make dramatic changes to their system - you're just going to have to call and reactivate.

Think about this - suppose your system exploded and you built a new one. By what you're saying you'd have to abandon your license and go buy a new one for that replacement system. Uh - no. You'll call, they'll ask some questions and you're on your way.

Relax people.

dedgar · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:09 am Post subject:

screwballl · Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject:

Caution: long post. This is just the basics for people that have questions here, this is NOT the entire EULA by a long shot.

dedgar, see 1b, first part of 2, 4 and 15a. The license is attached to one device. Any alteration of said device can result in a reactivation and may render your system to a limited basis until the copy is replaced. The way it is worded, "physical hardware system" means that any alteration of the hardware or software (as seen in 4) may force a reactivation.
So far I do not see any limits on the reactivation portion as of yet.

Some interesting points in the Vista EULA:

---------------------------

1. b. License Model. The software is licensed on a per copy per device basis.

2. INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS. Before you use the software under a license, you must assign that license to one device (physical hardware system). That device is the “licensed device.” A hardware partition or blade is considered to be a separate device.
a. Licensed Device. You may install one copy of the software on the licensed device. You may use the software on up to two processors on that device at one time. Except as provided in the Storage and Network Use (Ultimate edition) sections below, you may not use the software on any other device.

3. c. Icons, images and sounds. While the software is running, you may use but not share its icons, images, sounds, and media.
(This appears to rule out showing a screen to anyone other than the owner of a system. If Microsoft means to word the EULA this way, that implies you can't use projectors or linked video monitors if there's more than one human being present. It also implies that you can't take a screen shot of the Vista desktop.)

4. MANDATORY ACTIVATION.
Activation associates the use of the software with a specific device. During activation, the software will send information about the software and the device to Microsoft. This information includes the version, language and product key of the software, the Internet protocol address of the device, and information derived from the hardware configuration of the device. For more information, see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=69497. By using the software, you consent to the transmission of this information. Before you activate, you have the right to use the version of the software installed during the installation process. Your right to use the software after the time specified in the installation process is limited unless it is activated. This is to prevent its unlicensed use. You will not be able to continue using the software after that time if you do not activate it. If the device is connected to the Internet, the software may automatically connect to Microsoft for activation. You can also activate the software manually by Internet or telephone. If you do so, Internet and telephone service charges may apply. Some changes to your computer components or the software may require you to reactivate the software. The software will remind you to activate it until you do.

5. VALIDATION.
a. The software will from time to time validate the software, update or require download of the validation feature of the software. Validation verifies that the software has been activated and is properly licensed. Validation also permits you to use certain features of the software or to obtain additional benefits. For more information, see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=39157.
b. During a validation check, the software will send information about the software and the device to Microsoft. This information includes the version and product key of the software, and the Internet protocol address of the device. Microsoft does not use the information to identify or contact you. By using the software, you consent to the transmission of this information. For more information about validation and what is sent during a validation check, see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=69500.
c. If, after a validation check, the software is found not to be properly licensed, the functionality of the software may be affected. For example, you may need to reactivate the software, or
· receive reminders to obtain a properly licensed copy of the software,
or you may not be able to
· use or continue to use some of the features of the software, or
· obtain certain updates or upgrades from Microsoft.

7. a. Windows Media Digital Rights Management
. Content owners use Windows Media digital rights management technology (WMDRM) to protect their intellectual property, including copyrights. This software and third party software use WMDRM to play and copy WMDRM-protected content. If the software fails to protect the content, content owners may ask Microsoft to revoke the software’s ability to use WMDRM to play or copy protected content. Revocation does not affect other content. When you download licenses for protected content, you agree that Microsoft may include a revocation list with the licenses. Content owners may require you to upgrade MDRM to access their content. Microsoft software that includes WMDRM will ask for your consent prior to the upgrade. If you decline an upgrade, you will not be able to access content that requires the upgrade. You may switch off WMDRM features that access the Internet. When these features are off, you can still play content for which you have a valid license.
b. Use of Information. Microsoft may use the computer information, error reports, and Malware reports to improve our software and services. We may also share it with others, such as hardware and software vendors. They may use the information to improve how their products run with Microsoft software.

8. SCOPE OF LICENSE. The software is licensed, not sold.

10. BACKUP COPY. You may make one backup copy of the media. You may use it only to reinstall the software.

15. a. Software Other than Windows Anytime Upgrade. The first user of the software may reassign the license to another device one time. If you reassign the license, that other device becomes the “licensed device.”

16. TRANSFER TO A THIRD PARTY.
a. Software Other Than Windows Anytime Upgrade. The first user of the software may make a one time transfer of the software, and this agreement, directly to a third party. The first user must uninstall the software before transferring it separately from the device. The first user may not retain any copies.
b. Windows Anytime Upgrade Software. You may transfer the software directly to a third party only with the licensed device. You may not keep any copies of the software or any earlier version.
c. Other Requirements. Before any permitted transfer, the other party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software. The transfer must include the proof of license.

BRubble · Klamath Joined: 18 Sep 2005 Posts: 270

The real problem: what happens if I upgrade the processor, or decide to add more memory, and while I'm doing that I also decide to upgrade the hard drive and replace the video card. All of these are reasonable changes for the enthusiast and do not constitute a "new computer" but the combination will probably cause Windoze to reactivate. If I replace a motherboard and Windoze wants to reactivate, I think that is probably fair but a little onerous. But it is not fair if the motherboard that I'm using dies and I have to replace the motherboard. It is not a new computer. It is the same damn box sitting on my desk used by me and no one else.

Windoze made me reactivate when I unplugged a usb network adapter and plugged in a thumb drive! And I suddenly decided that I'd investigate Linux.

It is fair to give, sell, or otherwise dispose of the whole computer with the operating system to my kid brother, neighbor, uncle, etc. along with the operating system and buy a new computer with a new operating system. It is also fair to sell the parts on e-bay and let the next guy do something about the operating system. But the older parts become worth much less if there is no way to take perfectly good parts and use them without spending another $200 on an operating system, unless Linux or Windows 98 is an option.

-Lawless · Team Member Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 3595

bcweir · 8086 Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 70

Microsoft has traditionally always considered a new motherboard to be a new computer, even with XP. XP uses several sources from your hardware configuration to fabricate a product key and activate the OS. However, if you change any of these hardware components, you're going to have a different key and it's going to change the activation also.

Previously Microsoft had been pretty generous when it came to upgrades by continuing to allow repeated installations using the same software even when the computer's hardware profile kept changing.

For those of you who are still wearing your rose-colored glasses and pretending nothing will change, you haven't been paying attention.

The whole reason this is even news to begin with is that this is an about face from Microsoft's previous policy of allowing many or even unlimited hardware upgrades on the same copy of Windows. Microsoft is closing the all-you-can-eat upgrade/activation buffet table, people.

The whole reason this is even news is that Microsoft is saying that you will be allowed to transfer your license to another computer ONE (count them, ONE -- you can count can't you?) time.

If Microsoft was just going to allow unlimited activations on the same copy of Vista for DIFFERENT hardware profiles, why is this whole 'one transfer with Vista' even making news across the Internet?

Think about it.

Vista is not XP, and it IS a departure from the unlimited activations for different hardware profiles as an effort by Microsoft to crack down on piracy. Microsoft is even going so far as to say that 99 percent of users won't notice or care about the change in this policy. So what does that mean for the remaining 'one percent' of us that do upgrade their machines more than once every five years?

That's why this is news.

BRubble · Klamath Joined: 18 Sep 2005 Posts: 270

XPee did NOT allow me unlimited activations for changes in hardware profiles.

DentedCan · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:53 am Post subject:

Sovereign · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:11 am Post subject:

I installed Windows four times in one week. I had to call in for the fifth...I thought my Windows install was bad, but the Raptor HDD I had was dying. They never ask questions when you call in, just say you're an enthusiast and you upgraded blah blah blah and I think they'll be fine with that.

dedgar · Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:50 am Post subject:

screwball, Thanks for putting this on the thread

dedgar, see 1b, first part of 2, 4 and 15a. The license is attached to one device. Any alteration of said device can result in a reactivation and may render your system to a limited basis until the copy is replaced. The way it is worded, "physical hardware system" means that any alteration of the hardware or software (as seen in 4) may force a reactivation.

I read this and have come to the same conclusion I had in the first place. That if you alter your 'said device' you MAY have to reactivate.
Most every other post I see on this, and a lot of other forums, are coming to the conclusion that if you alter your 'said device', you will be FORCED to go buy a new disk or license. To me the word reactivate does not equate to buy a new disk.
In the mag feedback portion, Will Smith has answered a posting that he has written a letter to MS about the Vista EULA asking for clarifications.

willsmith · Maximum PC Editor Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 2279

I spoke with MS yesterday, and got no clarification. Here's my response:
http://www.maximumpc.com/2006/10/microsofts_lice.html

yagisencho · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject:

Thanks Will. That's the key word alright - clarity. The brighter a light we shine on this issue, the more pressure the Microsoft marketing department will feel to clarify the legalese.

I've been a Windows platform enthusiast since Windows 95, but the lack of clarity on this upgrade scenario has sucked that enthusiasm right out of my Vista beta-testing sails.

I don't think their intent is to extract more money from enthusiasts. I'm guessing they just want to ensure that pirates don't game the activation system. But I hope - for our sake and theirs - that they give the hardware enthusiasts market the same flexibility they gave us with XP.

bcweir · 8086 Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 70

On one hand, Microsoft seems to be expressing either annoyance or greed when it comes to the computer enthusiast sector of the market. I define computer enthusiast as anyone who upgrades to frequently improve their machine's capabilities; i.e. Maximum PC's loyal reader base. Furthermore, Microsoft's upcoming DirectX 10 forces the upgrade issue because there are no official DirectX 10 compliant video cards out yet.

So what is Microsoft saying? That the only "upgrades" it approves of is installing another Microsoft product on one's computer? By that definition, just upgrading a video card on one's machine meets and exhausts your 'one other device' transfer option, since the new video card effectively makes one's PC a 'different' computer than the hardware configuration Vista was originally activated on. Thus just making your computer DirectX 10 compliant completely nullifies your license transfer options with no other upgrades made to the machine!

I really feel for Will Smith and the rest of the Maximum PC staff, too. They change configurations countless times per month just in the process of testing hardware. Imagine that. A maximum of two product tests on a machine and you have to buy a new copy of Vista! That's the same as any of us making ONE upgrade and being forced to go out and buy another copy of Vista (or another license, which is probably the same thing).

I'll admit, I was never at the head of the pack waiting for the first copies of Vista to appear on the retail markets. I wasn't very crazy about its even further bloated system requirements, its continued philosophy of woo-wee features at the expense of performance and security. But this license transfer limitation is probably the most glaring deficiency of upgrading to Vista. Unless this changes, upgrading to Vista looks as appetizing as installing Windows Me.

Woo-wee.

Severian · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject:

This all boils down to the concept of property. If I purchase a watermelon, a shirt, a car, a DVD player, a book or anything else it becomes MY property not the property of the person/corporation who built/grew/wrote the product I purchased. The idea that software is somehow fundamentally different from every other product that has ever been produced by man is the greatest fallacy I have ever known. When I pay $60 for a game or $400 for an OS, I am still purchasing that software. This is capitalist society, not a feudalistic one.

yagisencho · Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject:

You're at least 20 years late for arguing that software becomes the property of the purchaser. I've been licensing the use of software for as long as I can remember. I own the packaging and perhaps the media, but the use of the software on that media is subject to the license associated with it.

Hence our discussion of the Vista license terms. I don't need to own all rights to the software on the Vista DVD, but I would love to have the right to install and exercise that license on any single device at one time. Period.