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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:14 am 
TravBv2.0
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I've never cared much for Linux on the Desktop. My desktop is usually my main-rig, which is also a gaming rig. I can understand why someone wouldn't game on their PC. It's expensive (or it easily can be). Why get a new video card every 18 months when you can get a new system every 5 years? Personally, I prefer gaming on a PC, and I find the quality of games are better too.

Back on topic, I like having Linux on the desktop. The fact that it's not perfect has been what's taught me to use it. Installing an OS isn't hard. But when you can't get sound? Then what? Google. You search, ask around, try out different things.... Between sound, video, java, flash, and networking, I've never had a Linux install work perfectly right out of the box. Ubuntu is getting better overall every release, but they've still got a ways to go, and even farther for things that aren't under their control, like specialized software compatibility.

I've been working with computers for about 5 years, but I've never considered myself a Windows expert. I know how to do a few things, where to look when certain problems arise, but nothing too fancy. After using Linux since Ubuntu 5.04 (Hoary Hedgehog), once I learned what I was doing (a little), I've found I prefer working in Linux than Windows. It's easier to me.

I still don't think that Linux will dominate the desktop anytime soon for numerous reasons. However, it rocks on everything from mobile phones (Palm Pre anyone) to big iron servers (cloud computing). This is where it counts. Let the consumer masses have their Windows and OSX. Those who wish to tinker, have Linux.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:13 am 
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nmanguy wrote:
Try XBMC or Boxee.


Well XBMC doesn't do live TV. (The main reason I have an HTPC)
To do it, you have to go through a bunch of BS streaming it from one program to another blah blah blah.....
I'll look at Boxee next.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:19 am 
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pfft... same thing.
These ain't gonna do it.


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:33 am 
SON OF A GUN
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Oh, this is gold. I had to share it here:

"Linux is only free if your time has no value" - Jamie Zawinski


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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:43 am 
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CrashTECH wrote:
Oh, this is gold. I had to share it here:

"Linux is only free if your time has no value" - Jamie Zawinski


It merely free'er than Windows. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:22 am 
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Why run Linux? Easy. When my windows installation gets borked I can fix it with my Linux installation. LOL. I don't use linux for anything other than that and backing up my dvd's / music cd's. Gaming is my thing, and Linux just... can't game for shit. Sorry Linux fans 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Why Linux?
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:56 am 
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RW wrote:
Why should I have a Linux OS?

FREEDOM! When something goes wrong, you aren't bound to a single vendor who may or may not care enough to help you as an individual. When everyone has access to the source code, you've just opened yourself up to support from thousands of uber-awesome hackers who know the code and can tell you EXACTLY what your problem is, not this 'retry, restart, reinstall" garbage.

If you don't like the way a program works, you have the freedom to either fix it yourself or hire someone to fix it for you (or you could simply request the feature to the developers, and if they like the idea too, then they'll probably try it out).

There's no reason to be scared that your operating system is spying on you because you can see exactly every move it makes. If you don't understand the code, you can rest assured that the thousands of developers reviewing the code (who are all from different walks of life across the world) are not in on a big conspiracy to steal your credit card information or brainwash you.

If you're going to shell out a few hundred dollars for an operating system, would you not rather use that money to hire someone to modify existing code to work exactly how you want it?

Some food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Linux?
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:15 pm 
Monkey Fed [PC]
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yurimxpxman wrote:

There's no reason to be scared that your operating system is spying on you because you can see exactly every move it makes. If you don't understand the code, you can rest assured that the thousands of developers reviewing the code (who are all from different walks of life across the world) are not in on a big conspiracy to steal your credit card information or brainwash you.


Yeah, Windows doesn't do this either. Neither does OSX. They don't spy on you. You can see every move they make as well, if you know how to look. The rest of your argument may hold water, but this part certainly does not.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Linux?
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:27 pm 
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bigtoyota479 wrote:
Yeah, Windows doesn't do this either. Neither does OSX. They don't spy on you. You can see every move they make as well, if you know how to look. The rest of your argument may hold water, but this part certainly does not.

Not necessarily Microsoft or Apple software.. but proprietary software in general.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:39 pm 
Monkey Fed [PC]
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Well, that paragraph is started with Operating systems, and makes no mention of proprietary software, hence the comment. For that matter, your whole post is OS based.

If you really stop and think about it, though, who would you trust more? Backyard hackers tinkering with Linux and writing programs for everyone to use, or big corporations with much more at stake? Who would logically be more likely to steal your identity? I'm not talking about people like you and me and the people on these forums. I'm talking about yanking someone off the street and asking them: You have this OS that was created and maintained by people like you and me, or you have this OS that was created by a trusted coporation with a good reputation, which would you choose?

If you are paranoid about installing a program because you think it will steal your identity, you have no business using a PC, let alone Linux. Either that or just don't install it. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:52 pm 
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bigtoyota479 wrote:
Well, that paragraph is started with Operating systems, and makes no mention of proprietary software, hence the comment. For that matter, your whole post is OS based.

If you really stop and think about it, though, who would you trust more? Backyard hackers tinkering with Linux and writing programs for everyone to use, or big corporations with much more at stake? Who would logically be more likely to steal your identity? I'm not talking about people like you and me and the people on these forums. I'm talking about yanking someone off the street and asking them: You have this OS that was created and maintained by people like you and me, or you have this OS that was created by a trusted coporation with a good reputation, which would you choose?

If you are paranoid about installing a program because you think it will steal your identity, you have no business using a PC, let alone Linux. Either that or just don't install it. :wink:

That's a good counterargument, and I think it's valid for small, no-name applications that no one reads. But high-profile projects like Pidgin, KDE, Apache, Linux, etc., have too many eyes watching, and that can't be ignored. Which would you rather have, one thousand developers reviewing other people's source code, or ten thousand crackers observing an application's executables?

Only one of these methods can be proven to be completely safe.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Actually, none of those methods can be proven to be completely safe. All it takes is one bad apple at a company, or one rogue programmer for Linux to cause a whole bunch of hurt. Point is, nothing is really and truly safe. It's up to you and me, the end users, to watch what we do and how we do it.

However, to Joe Schmuck on the street, he'd take the comfortable, big corporation reputation over the open sourced OS and programs. Why? So he'd have someone else to blame and call when things didn't work right. People are lazy, and they want it to just work with no help from them whatsoever. Linux is getting much better at that, but it still isn't there.

Take an article I just read as an example. Someone distributed a Windows 7 RC install over torrents that had botnet code embedded in the OS. Now there's a 27,000 unit strong botnet on the loose. One bad apple, people's laziness, and that's what you get. Same thing could be done with Linux, for sure, but it's not popular enough to warrant the attention.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:02 pm 
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yurimxpxman wrote:

Only one of these methods can be proven to be completely safe.

Nothing including Linux is completely safe and that can be proven.
Although extremely rare, viruses for Linux do exist.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:14 pm 
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bigtoyota479 wrote:
Actually, none of those methods can be proven to be completely safe. All it takes is one bad apple at a company, or one rogue programmer for Linux to cause a whole bunch of hurt. Point is, nothing is really and truly safe. It's up to you and me, the end users, to watch what we do and how we do it.

However, to Joe Schmuck on the street, he'd take the comfortable, big corporation reputation over the open sourced OS and programs. Why? So he'd have someone else to blame and call when things didn't work right. People are lazy, and they want it to just work with no help from them whatsoever. Linux is getting much better at that, but it still isn't there.

Take an article I just read as an example. Someone distributed a Windows 7 RC install over torrents that had botnet code embedded in the OS. Now there's a 27,000 unit strong botnet on the loose. One bad apple, people's laziness, and that's what you get. Same thing could be done with Linux, for sure, but it's not popular enough to warrant the attention.


That is true. It's all in the hands of the distributor. Actually, that's an interesting thought. Wouldn't it be great to create a system where software is accepted by a series of people, and provided mathematical proof that each of these people okayed the changes? That would be a safer way to distribute software. You never know what kind of stuff the distributor (or packager) might wish to slip in.

What if the md5sum of each file, after being compiled with that specific version of code, was listed, and after comparing the hashes, people report that the binaries are safe? (You'd have to compile it under the same conditions if you were to check the md5sums, of course.)

-Lawless wrote:
Nothing including Linux is completely safe and that can be proven.
Although extremely rare, viruses for Linux do exist.

I didn't say free from viruses. Security vulnerabilities will always exist in any non-trivial application.

My point is that only free software can be observed for blatantly malicious code.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:43 pm 
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Yeah, only free software can be inspected for that, but when was the last time you bought a piece of software that contained malicious code? No inspections necessary there, already done for you.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:49 pm 
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bigtoyota479 wrote:
Yeah, only free software can be inspected for that, but when was the last time you bought a piece of software that contained malicious code? No inspections necessary there, already done for you.

*cough* SONY! *cough*


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:01 pm 
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HAHAHA!!! I forgot about their silly little rootkit ordeal, probably because I wasn't affected by it. Well, poop, I guess it does happen once in a while.

So then what about companies like Starforce that actually make software like that and sell it? It's not technically harmful, but could be considered so. Big gray area, those are.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Sony's thing was more of a misguided attempt at preventing piracy than setting out to do harm maliciously. Was it a bad move? Sure it was. Did they set out to frak up their customers machines? I doubt it. They were protecting their property (intellectual) like you would protect your home and belongings.

Bottom line. Linux is not better or worse than Windows. Neither is better or worse than OSx. They are different. They are all better at different things.

Your OS doesn't spy on you and neither does 99% of the applications in the world (unless it involves calling home to make sure it isn't pirated, and well, there you go. If you stole it you deserve it). The whole "paranoia" aspect makes no sense, and really kind of annoys me. Just because the door is open doesn't mean anybody looks. I am talking about the source here....

I really don't think there are THOUSANDS of developers watching every project. Even OOo probably only has a few hundred at best with a few casual onlookers. They certainly aren't watching every change and every line. In fact I bet there is a lot of overlap / holes in the review. They do the best they can, but who is to say that the person reviewing the code is not as skillful as the coder that wrote it?

Just because you can see the source, doesn't that mean you do. I haven't looked at anything for more than 5 minutes. I definitely didn't check my last Linux install for malicious code. That would be silly. I still wouldn't be done and I installed it like 9 months ago! I have a life to live and things to do. I can only do my best to trust that the reputable vendors are selling reputable software. I want shit to work. I don't want to have to verify it. I trust that the code will do what it claims to, and do my best to watch out for malicious software and protect my data with backups.

I won't even get into the liability concerns (which is why I don't think we will ever see large market penetration, especially on desktops, in the business world). Something goes bad with your Win Server cluster, you have somebody to call and yell at, and very likely get support people out next day.

What happens when something fraks up with my Ubuntu farm? I can go and post about it on the forums? Who is going to come to my server room and help me? Yeah, I thought not.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:31 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
What happens when something fraks up with my Ubuntu farm? I can go and post about it on the forums? Who is going to come to my server room and help me? Yeah, I thought not.

There's plenty of paid support options out there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:41 pm 
TravBv2.0
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CrashTECH wrote:
What happens when something fraks up with my Ubuntu farm? I can go and post about it on the forums? Who is going to come to my server room and help me? Yeah, I thought not.


Honestly, if you're a *NIX admin, chances are you'd already have a worst-case-scenario plan ready to roll. Not only this, but what kind of Ubuntu server farm is being run out of some college kids closet? (don't look at me! :shock: ). A real company with Linux servers has 24/7/365 support from their Linux vendor. Businesses don't just download Slackware and call it a day. They're running SLES and RHEL with support contracts.


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