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 Post subject: Networking Questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:23 pm 
8086
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Hello,

I was wondering if anyone can definitively answer a couple of networking questions. First, let me give you the scenario. I will be moving soon into a house with a friend where we intend to run 2-4 PCs plus a file/print/email/internet server. We are currently using a cable modem for our internet access and we both have 10/100 internet sharing routers. We want to switch to a gigabit setup for in house stuff and this is where the questions start.

1. I have been told by a couple of people that the only way to share the cable modem would be to connect one of our internet routers to the gigabit switch. Is this really the case?

2. If that is the case I was also told that by having a 10/100 router hooked up that all the switches ports would drop to 10/100. I don't think that is correct but I have been unable to get a definitive answer on that. I was looking into a Netgear GS105 gigabit switch with 5 auto-sensing ports.

3. With me running the internet server would it be wise for me to look into a vpn/firewall device? And if I did how would that affect my internet sharing?

Thanks for any help you can provide,

Bill Junior


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:00 pm 
Northwood
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i have no experience with gigabit really but im pretty sure you will need a gigabit nic card to hook it up with the gigabit switch. check out www.newegg.com for the coolest deals.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:04 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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I think for 2-4 PCs a 10/100 network is sufficient still as far as gaming and most every day operations go.

If you think you'll be doing alot of sustained large file transfers, then maybe gigabit would be something to consider.

That said, I'll try to answer your questions.
1) The best way in my opinion to share a cable connection is to share it through a router. Im not sure how else you plan on setting this up though? From what I got from your post, you'll want to have your 10/100 router, then uplink to a 10/100/1000 switch, then have your computers plug into that. That would work. Your PCs can talk to each other at gigabit speeds, but your internet would be limited to 10/100 (not that internet needs 100Mbit...). This would even be better if there is such a beast as a gigabit router, but I do not know of one (in all honesty I havent really looked...)

But Im not really sure I understand your question, so you might want to elaborate on this one.

2) No, see above. If you have the PCs connected to the gigabit switch, they will talk to each other at gigabit. But the PCs will only talk to the switch at a max of 100Mbit. This was only an issue with hubs I think. Switches can talk to each port specifically and so your whole network doesnt get knocked down to 100Mbit speeds. That Netgear sounds like a good choice. I like Netgear stuff. We also have some D-Link wireless stuff. The jury is still out on them though. We also have a Linksys router that has been good to us since we've had it.

3) I think it'd be an interesting idea to set up a linux box to run firewall services, it can be done pretty cheaply too. Otherwise just make sure you run a good software firewall on all your machines.

Hope that helps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:26 pm 
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keymaker wrote:
i have no experience with gigabit really but im pretty sure you will need a gigabit nic card to hook it up with the gigabit switch. check out www.newegg.com for the coolest deals.


Yeah, I should have pointed out any system hooked up to the gigabit switch would have a gigabit NIC card installed. Gonna use the Netgear GS311 NICs. Good call on Newegg too, I do about 90% of my PC shopping there.

- Bill Junior


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:42 pm 
8086
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Quote:
I think for 2-4 PCs a 10/100 network is sufficient still as far as gaming and most every day operations go.

If you think you'll be doing alot of sustained large file transfers, then maybe gigabit would be something to consider.


Yeah, this is mostly a power trip. It will be worth it anyways even if I only do a large file transfer a handful of times. We are also going to be running network wire through the house so I don't really want to do it in cat5 only to have to rerun cat6 later.

Quote:
1) The best way in my opinion to share a cable connection is to share it through a router. Im not sure how else you plan on setting this up though?


Well I wasn't sure if there was even another way. I was only asking about the router sharing the internet because if there was a way to share the internet without having to run a second device that would have been preferable. But it's ok, it's the price I pay for being on a power trip. :) I don't think there is another way around this.

Quote:
Your PCs can talk to each other at gigabit speeds, but your internet would be limited to 10/100 (not that internet needs 100Mbit...).


But what a wonderful world it would be if our internet speeds could do gigabit. (hehe, where is the drooling smiley when you need it) :D

Quote:
This would even be better if there is such a beast as a gigabit router, but I do not know of one (in all honesty I havent really looked...)


I have checked around a few places and have yet to see one, even on the manufacturers web sites. I don't think they make them either.

Quote:
3) I think it'd be an interesting idea to set up a linux box to run firewall services, it can be done pretty cheaply too. Otherwise just make sure you run a good software firewall on all your machines.


If only I was a little better at what I do this box would be a linux box but sadly I will probably be setting it up as a windows server box instead. I tried to install Linux before and it didn't go that well. I know unix well enough to enter commands but I am unfamiliar with the layout in Linux (where it's file settings are stored etc). The good thing is when I go to this new house I will actually have an extra PC there so maybe I will set it up as test and try to get the linux working properly.

Quote:
Hope that helps.


You have helped a great deal though. Thank you very much for your assistance.

- Bill Junior


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 Post subject: Re: Networking Questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:58 am 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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1. You'll need a Gigabit card to take full advantage of the speed, but it should step down to 100 Base or 10 Base. That's the whole point of the switch. Now if your cable modem is communicating at that speed, then sure, you'll need that switch...I'll add, I've never seen one that communicates at gigabit myself, but that's not saying that they don't exist.

2. See 1

3. You'd be wise to use a firewall. VPN may or may not benefit you at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking Questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:37 am 
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furball146 wrote:
1. You'll need a Gigabit card to take full advantage of the speed


If you see his above post he is very well aware he needs a gigabit card to take advantage of the gigabit switch, he even listed a model # referring you to what card he is going to use.

Quote:
You'd be wise to use a firewall. VPN may or may not benefit you at all.


Firewall's are always a smart idea, im not sure what he would benefit from the VPN, but i do know he uses that to log into work from the house, i just don't think its really necessary to log into your home pc from work. But who knows, he may have something he wishes to do.. He did mention a server, that possibly might serve as a web server, he might need to login locally to make changes to the site? Wouldnt that be a benefit of the VPN access?

Everyone's responses are great and helpful, but they are missing the main question.

The answer he is looking for is whats the difference between auto switching, and non autoswitching switches?

If its a non auto switch and we hook up the internet to the gigabit switch wouldnt it bring the entire network down to a 10/100 speed seeing the internet is hooked up thru a 10/100 router?

And if its auto switching wouldnt the switch realize that we were xfering files from pc to pc which would be 1gigabit and realize to switch to 1gigabit speeds so we wouldnt just be wasting money.

I've seen a couple models of gigabit switches ranging from 99 - 180 and the only difference i could really tell with my limited networking ability is that auto switching capability.

If anyone who has done this before, or has extensive knowledge in the networking field please chime in and help get Mr Bill Jr's question answered.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking Questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:44 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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sLpFhaWK wrote:
Everyone's responses are great and helpful, but they are missing the main question.

The answer he is looking for is whats the difference between auto switching, and non autoswitching switches?

If its a non auto switch and we hook up the internet to the gigabit switch wouldnt it bring the entire network down to a 10/100 speed seeing the internet is hooked up thru a 10/100 router?

And if its auto switching wouldnt the switch realize that we were xfering files from pc to pc which would be 1gigabit and realize to switch to 1gigabit speeds so we wouldnt just be wasting money.


I never saw him phrase that as his main question? But I can see where you get that from.

Anyway, IIRC, switches that are auto-sensing will work on a PORT BY PORT basis and operate at the fastest speed between the two of them.
Non-auto-sensing switches do not.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:06 pm 
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non-autosensing ports won't work with other speeds than what they are built for.

However, this is pretty much a moot point because I haven't seen any network device made in the last 5 years that doesn't autoswitch.


MrBillJr:

What you need to do is hook up the Internet Router into the Gigabit switch WAN port, if your switch has one. If your switch doesn't have a WAN port, then you should be able to just plug it into any port on the switch.

With this setup, all of the client PCs will operate at Gigabit speeds when accessing the local network. All traffic going to and from the Internet will move at Fast Ethernet (a.k.a. 100Mb/s) speeds. Since your internet speed probably maxes out at 1.5-3 Mb/s, that's no problem.

Make sure that the default gateway for your clients are set to the router, or you won't get access.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:49 pm 
Northwood
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deject wrote:
What you need to do is hook up the Internet Router into the Gigabit switch WAN port, if your switch has one. If your switch doesn't have a WAN port, then you should be able to just plug it into any port on the switch..


uplink port, not a WAN port. WAN port is what's on a router for connection to the modem.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:54 pm 
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cigar3tte wrote:
uplink port, not a WAN port. WAN port is what's on a router for connection to the modem.


the uplink port is another name for the WAN port, they mean the same thing.

I took a freaking class on this shit, I know what I'm talking about.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:05 pm 
Northwood
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deject wrote:
cigar3tte wrote:
uplink port, not a WAN port. WAN port is what's on a router for connection to the modem.


the uplink port is another name for the WAN port, they mean the same thing.

I took a freaking class on this shit, I know what I'm talking about.


why is the class always right? i've heard teachers say and do some dumb things.

the extra ports you add through the uplink port will be on the same network. a WAN port brings in another outside network, and belongs on a router.

unless mebbe if you're dealing with a layer 3 switch.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:30 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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deject wrote:
cigar3tte wrote:
uplink port, not a WAN port. WAN port is what's on a router for connection to the modem.


the uplink port is another name for the WAN port, they mean the same thing.

I took a freaking class on this shit, I know what I'm talking about.


No...they dont.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:51 pm 
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Yeah well, I may know what I'm talking about, but I still don't communicate well. On many switches, there is a separate port for connecting to other switches or to routers for access to other networks. What I mean is that the router should be plugged into that port, if the switch has one. I have seen such ports labeled as WAN and UPLINK, so that is why I chose the terminology I did.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, so if I came across that way I apologize.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:27 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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deject wrote:
Yeah well, I may know what I'm talking about, but I still don't communicate well. On many switches, there is a separate port for connecting to other switches or to routers for access to other networks. What I mean is that the router should be plugged into that port, if the switch has one. I have seen such ports labeled as WAN and UPLINK, so that is why I chose the terminology I did.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, so if I came across that way I apologize.


In most cases you dont HAVE to hook the router to that port. If you run a patch cable from a LAN port on the (switched) router to a LAN port on a switch, it should work just fine.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:34 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
In most cases you dont HAVE to hook the router to that port. If you run a patch cable from a LAN port on the (switched) router to a LAN port on a switch, it should work just fine.


Yes it should, but it's better to leave your regular ports open for the client PC's if you can.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking Questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:29 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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Quote:
If you see his above post he is very well aware he needs a gigabit card to take advantage of the gigabit switch, he even listed a model # referring you to what card he is going to use.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say to me here. All they were asking what was that really the case..

Quote:
The answer he is looking for is whats the difference between auto switching, and non autoswitching switches?


Where the heck did you pull that from?? Understand, everyone has pretty much said that this will drop speeds to support a lower TX,but that is not anything close to what they were asking....

not to mention, if it didn't compensate any, it just wouldn't be a switch now would it :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:18 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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deject wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
In most cases you dont HAVE to hook the router to that port. If you run a patch cable from a LAN port on the (switched) router to a LAN port on a switch, it should work just fine.


Yes it should, but it's better to leave your regular ports open for the client PC's if you can.


He's running with 2-4 PCs...it's a non-issue IMO.
Most 4-port gigabit switches are going to have a shared uplink/4th LAN port anyway (if even that much...most of them nowadays just tell you to plug it into any of the LAN ports).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:20 am 
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SomeGuy wrote:
He's running with 2-4 PCs...it's a non-issue IMO.
Most 4-port gigabit switches are going to have a shared uplink/4th LAN port anyway (if even that much...most of them nowadays just tell you to plug it into any of the LAN ports).



Well, I'm just sayin'....


this debate is pointless because no one is wrong here. I guess I'm glad to have others to clarify things.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking Questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:49 am 
8086
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MrBillJr wrote:
1. I have been told by a couple of people that the only way to share the cable modem would be to connect one of our internet routers to the gigabit switch. Is this really the case?


It is not the only way, but it is the best way. Your internet connection isn't going to be 10mb let alone 100mb. If connected to a switch it will have no affect on the rest of the network.

MrBillJr wrote:
2. If that is the case I was also told that by having a 10/100 router hooked up that all the switches ports would drop to 10/100.


On an auto sensing switch it will allow communication among all different speeds 10/100/1000. You won't be able to communicate with the router any faster than it is able to communicate, in this case 100mb.

MrBillJr wrote:
3. With me running the internet server would it be wise for me to look into a vpn/firewall device? And if I did how would that affect my internet sharing?


Running an internet server is a lot of work and responsibility. You need to keep it fully patched and protected. A router will provide some protection via NAT, unless you put the server in the DMZ. VPN/Firewall is a personal choice, but would provide additional protection to your equipment. It would affect you sharing only in the fact that it would have to be configured.

MrBillJr wrote:
We are also going to be running network wire through the house so I don't really want to do it in cat5 only to have to rerun cat6 later.


Here's a suggestion to save you money. Run the CAT6 and use your existing 10/100 gear. Given the equipment you have you'll never take advantage of a gigabit network, you just don't need that much bandwidth. If after you move in you discover a use for gigabit, streaming video maybe, upgrade then.


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