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 Post subject: No no no- *that* is not the issue... Here it is!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:55 pm 
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Now-now-now... Calm yourselves, please!
I was going to post this mildly agitated diatribe (see below) but then pangs of conscience squeezed my descending colon, and sitting on my noisey throne I had to ask my wife (by walky-talky to penetrate the gurgles, rushes and flopping splashes) "Honey, How do I know that they did not have a discussion and I missed it? I read the rag cover-to-cover ASA it arrives, but Maybe I missed it on paper or Maybe I missed it online. Waddya think, Hon?"

"Jees, how 'bout a mercy flush, Maggs? Thanks... well maybe you should should just preface the rant with that proviso, like "I'm only very annoyed if there was no open & free exchange of idea, so if there was such a dialog before the MPC Forum split in 2 and I just didn't notice.... Then never mind the following"

"Thanks, Hon, Maybe I'll try that!"

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+

I don't give a flying F about seniority, or my recorded tally of posts, longevity , paid subscription or whatnot.
The issue which upsets me here is the extreme cynicism and betrayal of readership evidenced by the MPC Staff by splitting our community with no dialog invited of us.

This stunning change in community dynamics was instituted by caveat "Make It So" without solicitation of our input or concerns, without open discussion.

All the high-minded editorials about "Us" now seem about as sincere as on-hold voicemail recordings: "Your call is very important to us"

When the chips are down, the MPC readers are simply cut out of the equation. We are told: "This has been decided, deal with it."

How many times can a man be so treated before he develops a cynical outlook? How many time can a man behave as he was taught: as a gentleman, and still feel chivalrous after getting yet another sucker-punch?


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 Post subject: Re: No no no- *that* is not the issue... Here it is!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:45 pm 
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Maggot wrote:
The issue which upsets me here is the extreme cynicism and betrayal of readership evidenced by the MPC Staff by splitting our community with no dialog invited of us.

This stunning change in community dynamics was instituted by caveat "Make It So" without solicitation of our input or concerns, without open discussion.

Hmmm...Well, I guess I can see that. But it was discussed many times through complaints about Delphi and readers pointing out that they wanted a new forum (in the feeback folder). So, maybe they thought it would be something every one would like. Folks made fun of them for using Delphi instead of having their own Forum. Also, many good ideas came up for the forum, but Delphi was a limiting issue. and BTW, the Commport is still around for now and I suspect it will be for a long time (though it may change a bit).

All the high-minded editorials about "Us" now seem about as sincere as on-hold voicemail recordings: "Your call is very important to us"

When the chips are down, the MPC readers are simply cut out of the equation. We are told: "This has been decided, deal with it."



How many times can a man be so treated before he develops a cynical outlook? How many time can a man behave as he was taught: as a gentleman, and still feel chivalrous after getting yet another sucker-punch?

I can see why you feel that way and am sorry you do. However, some of us realize that this is what we have been asking for - for a good while. I don't like the phpBB aspect, but since I was one of the folks that said they should move away from Delphi, I can't complain. The learning curve on Beehive may have been too steep - or it lacked certain functions - can't tell ya. I also feel this was a way to get closer to the readership - not further away.

Manta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:57 pm 
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"Where were you when this topic was fresh and everyone was talking abt it? By your silence you've shown indifference and abdicated right to speak out on the topic, it's so yesterday now" -[my distillation]

That POV is always available to throw at the aggrieved. I suppose if I were more involved, more diligent, I'd have been caught up in the topic while it was fresh - in a more timely fashion.

Tho I am as non-confrontational a guy as you'll ever meet, in this instance I don't feel at all apologetic about being late to the fray.

I don't work or live here, but I think that peeps who are more involved than I am ... and have been consistently so for more than the several years I've logged... those folks are the truly *obsessed*.

As it is, I get plenty of ribbing from my family. I Do have a family, also a medical practice, in short: a life apart from MPC, just as 99.9% of those here do. So I don't accept it as a valid criticism that I missed out from inattention ("shame on you for sloth and lack of serious interest" ,in essence).

IMO, this should have been discussed (or announced) in the paper magazine at least one issue before the event. That would have permitted an honest and open dialogue.

And... even if not to alter business decisions then at least it would have respected our interest in our community and it would have let us Vent. Any other course of action was lowdown and "sketchy". And SO unnecessary, too, for we all know who has the decision-making powers here! Managemnt wouldn't have taken any risks by being more open- and instead they've effectively insulted the whole of their base of enthusiasts. And -IMO- made a *really* bad decision which will I fear prove to be extremely devisive and damaging.
Disappointing, really.
OK, that's all I want to say abt this.
Onwards and upwards. & thanks for letting *me* vent!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 6:26 am 
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Maggot wrote:
"Where were you when this topic was fresh and everyone was talking abt it? By your silence you've shown indifference and abdicated right to speak out on the topic, it's so yesterday now" -[my distillation]

That POV is always available to throw at the aggrieved. I suppose if I were more involved, more diligent, I'd have been caught up in the topic while it was fresh - in a more timely fashion.

Thats not exactly how I would distill it - but it will work. Its not really an issue of you being involved. More one of folks being involved and people with your view simply not seeing a reason to chime in. You may or may not have seen the posts at delphi, but certainly you were not the only one that doesn't like the change and many of those folks didn't chime in either. Possibly becasue they didn't think "this" could seriously happen - but it has. I appreciate your POV - but again, I like "this".

Tho I am as non-confrontational a guy as you'll ever meet, in this instance I don't feel at all apologetic about being late to the fray.

There is no need to be. You had a complaint. Its is legitimate and based on how you feel.

I don't work or live here, but I think that peeps who are more involved than I am ... and have been consistently so for more than the several years I've logged... those folks are the truly *obsessed*.

Heheheh - yes. I have started to limit my own time here to try to avoid aquiring that "paste" look.

As it is, I get plenty of ribbing from my family. I Do have a family, also a medical practice, in short: a life apart from MPC, just as 99.9% of those here do. So I don't accept it as a valid criticism that I missed out from inattention ("shame on you for sloth and lack of serious interest" ,in essence).

Again, I am not throwing it at you. This converation was never had in a direct fasion with the editors (that I know of). It was simply a series of tiny converations/complaints about Delphi and MPC. So, I don't want to make it sound like I had any direct influence or involvement. That was the mods and the editors who finally decided and I am not privy to the details.

IMO, this should have been discussed (or announced) in the paper magazine at least one issue before the event. That would have permitted an honest and open dialogue.

And *THIS* is a good complaint. You are right - that would have been nice.

And... even if not to alter business decisions then at least it would have respected our interest in our community and it would have let us Vent. Any other course of action was lowdown and "sketchy". And SO unnecessary, too, for we all know who has the decision-making powers here! Managemnt wouldn't have taken any risks by being more open- and instead they've effectively insulted the whole of their base of enthusiasts. And -IMO- made a *really* bad decision which will I fear prove to be extremely devisive and damaging.
Disappointing, really.
OK, that's all I want to say abt this.
Onwards and upwards. & thanks for letting *me* vent!


Its a legit rant - I like the change (mostly) and you don't. You should have had the time to post an opinion in advance. Hopefully MPC staff will see this and realize thier reader actually want to be involved. They could capitalize on that. Maybe this change will bring them closer to thier readers. I am sure some of the PC club members can write short tip and tricks for MPC. Why not? Maybe even you someday.

Manta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:36 am 
Maximum PC Editor
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This was not just a "Wow, it's Thursday, let's start hosting the forums ourselves for kicks" kind of discussion. We (the editors and IT guys at Future) have been talking to Chams and the rest of the mods for ages to make as smooth a transition as possible.

Rather than announce the change way in advance and have massive debates in the old forums about which is better, what we have now or what we will have in the future, we decided it would be less painful to just give everyone the option to choose. If you don't like the new PHPBB, you can continue reading the Dephi boards. It's your choice.

Some people constantly complained about Delphi, some people don't like the xBB format we have here. There's absolutely no way we can make everyone happy with a change like this, so we decided to make the change in the least controversial way possible.

///Will


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:51 am 
Maximum PC Editor
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By the way, the fundamental problem I have and have always had with the Delphi boards is that the method of addressing posts to people creates long, completely disjointed threads that eventually devolve into five or six conversations where there is no context given for any responses.

The "The Commport" thread at the old forum is a perfect example. By the 180th post, the thread had three or four conversations running, ranging from on-topic complaints/discussion about the new phpbb forum to a couple of guys discussing some sort of medical issue.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:56 am 
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WillSmith wrote:
The "The Commport" thread at the old forum is a perfect example. By the 180th post, the thread had three or four conversations running, ranging from on-topic complaints/discussion about the new phpbb forum to a couple of guys discussing some sort of medical issue.


Well, phpBB will help. But the mods will have to keep things on thread as it will still happen. Its human nature and a product of the types of people that visit forums on this subject. 'sides, its kinda fun trying to figure out when a thead has jumped the shark.

As for YOU!

Thanx for posting. I hope you use this move to attempt to become more involved with MPC readers. Actually, you and Josh already are - maybe some of the other editors will be.

I hope you read the suggestions/complaints made and take time to comment and start a dialog as you have done in the past.

I would like to see forum members names show up in MPC once in a while.

ANyways - have fun.


Manta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:17 pm 
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Manta,

One new tool we have at our disposal is the ability to split threads. In fact, there was an LL thread about bikes that some people hijacked about other things. The thread was split so the hijackers could ramble on at one another.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:38 pm 
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Ghostwheel wrote:
Manta,

One new tool we have at our disposal is the ability to split threads. In fact, there was an LL thread about bikes that some people hijacked about other things. The thread was split so the hijackers could ramble on at one another.


Kewl - that will help. Delphi made it a pain. I mean you would want to ask someone something without a new Thread start and next thing you know the thread is highjacked (and you started it).

Between splitting and the easy PM it will be easier. If I want to ask a question, I PM and I don't feel like I am spamming thier personal email box.

Manta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:39 pm 
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WillSmith wrote:
This was not just a "Wow, it's Thursday, let's start hosting the forums ourselves for kicks" kind of discussion. We (the editors and IT guys at Future) have been talking to Chams and the rest of the mods for ages to make as smooth a transition as possible.

Rather than announce the change way in advance and have massive debates in the old forums about which is better, what we have now or what we will have in the future, we decided it would be less painful to just give everyone the option to choose. If you don't like the new PHPBB, you can continue reading the Dephi boards. It's your choice.

Some people constantly complained about Delphi, some people don't like the xBB format we have here. There's absolutely no way we can make everyone happy with a change like this, so we decided to make the change in the least controversial way possible.

///Will



i think things are working out well now that things are stable


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