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 Post subject: Staples changes their IT Infrastructure
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:46 pm 
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Now why would an IT related story be in Programmer's Paradise? Read here first:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1633092,00.asp

Apparently, Staples in moving out of the Microsoft world and into the IBM world. That is, they're no longer focusing their entire IT infrastructure - which was built on Windows Technology - into IBM's websphere (IIRC, it uses Linux). The interesting part is that Staples CIO thinks that .NET is not as flexible nor as manageable as Java, hence the move to J2EE. Another interesting thing is the move to DB2 fro Oracle. I've messed around with DB2 a while back, and might I say that it's a fine RDBMS. Lots of cool features as well as self-healing functions make DB2 a really nice RDBMS. What do you guys think? Do you think that Staples move to J2EE is a good indicator of the competition between .NET and J2xE?


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 Post subject: Re: Staples changes their IT Infrastructure
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:57 am 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
Now why would an IT related story be in Programmer's Paradise? Read here first:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1633092,00.asp

Apparently, Staples in moving out of the Microsoft world and into the IBM world. That is, they're no longer focusing their entire IT infrastructure - which was built on Windows Technology - into IBM's websphere (IIRC, it uses Linux). The interesting part is that Staples CIO thinks that .NET is not as flexible nor as manageable as Java, hence the move to J2EE. Another interesting thing is the move to DB2 fro Oracle. I've messed around with DB2 a while back, and might I say that it's a fine RDBMS. Lots of cool features as well as self-healing functions make DB2 a really nice RDBMS. What do you guys think? Do you think that Staples move to J2EE is a good indicator of the competition between .NET and J2xE?


Wow - The CIO actually sounds intellegent.

"Staples CIO thinks that .NET is not as flexible nor as manageable as Java, hence the move to J2EE. "

Here is my uneducated opinion:

I think for small, quasi-static, single platform bussinesses - MS is fine. I think that if you start getting big and are in an everchanging bussiness (i.e. into aggressive aquisition), the MS system starts to throw up walls. By its very nature, it is supposed to be easy to manage (so I am told and believe). Making things easy to manage means reduced scalability and flexability. When you outgrow the system, "easy to manage" becomes "difficult to manage".

If you think about the differences between .NET and J2EE I think you can see what I am saying. Besides the fact that you can't swing a cat without finding a good Java person.

To a CIO, it looks like WEBsphere is easier to manage. I bet in reality it takes better and more personel to manage it. But, the higher flexability and scalability means it works better and new implimentation is smoother.

It kinda like saying a HumV is easier to manage than a road car. It really isn't - but if you are trying to push the road car to cross mountains off road - Then the HumV appears to be easier to manage. Put them both on highway only driving and the situation would reverse.

Anyways, that my 2cents

Manta


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 Post subject: Re: Staples changes their IT Infrastructure
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:54 am 
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MantaBase wrote:
I think for small, quasi-static, single platform bussinesses - MS is fine. I think that if you start getting big and are in an everchanging bussiness (i.e. into aggressive aquisition), the MS system starts to throw up walls. By its very nature, it is supposed to be easy to manage (so I am told and believe). Making things easy to manage means reduced scalability and flexability. When you outgrow the system, "easy to manage" becomes "difficult to manage".


I have a yes/no relationship regarding small, quasi-static, single platform businesses. The thing is, Microsoft is okay if they don't have an IT staff, but in some cases were a small business does have one, they can afford not to stick with a Microsoft platform. The one thing I noticed about Microsoft platforms is that once you use it, you're locked in.

Mantabase wrote:
If you think about the differences between .NET and J2EE I think you can see what I am saying. Besides the fact that you can't swing a cat without finding a good Java person.

To a CIO, it looks like WEBsphere is easier to manage. I bet in reality it takes better and more personel to manage it. But, the higher flexability and scalability means it works better and new implimentation is smoother.


I think the fundamental difference between .NET and J2EE is that J2EE has had plenty of time to mature, whereas .NET is just starting out. I don't think it's platforms at all, J2EE runs fine on Windows. What makes me think about the power of J2EE is that Stapes was aiming to merge 3 departments into a single entity using a single piece of software. That is interesting. The fact that the CIO chose J2EE must have something to do with its features since .NET is a fairly robust platform.

Also, there are a lot of Java programmers out there, so I'm thinking that hiring new people won't be as difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: Staples changes their IT Infrastructure
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:22 am 
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Basically I agree

My platform statement was just as you said - only reverse. J2ee is fine on windows. Can you say the same about .NET and linux?

And available people is what I meant by "swinging the cat"

Manta


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 Post subject: Re: Staples changes their IT Infrastructure
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:04 am 
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MantaBase wrote:
Basically I agree

My platform statement was just as you said - only reverse. J2ee is fine on windows. Can you say the same about .NET and linux?

And available people is what I meant by "swinging the cat"

Manta



hehehehehe... .NET on Linux is not exactly robust, at least not if you were to compare it with Java. Simply put, they haven't all of .NET onto Linux yet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:04 pm 
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I guess someone is willing to run the risk of stirring all the VB programmers here now into a tizzy!!!

My 2.5 cents..... .NET is a J2EE implementation (one of many possible implementations). It saves the architect and developers some time, since they don't have to consider alternative implementations, but it is at the expense of flexibility in both the implementation's design and the software components available. .NET does have multi-language support though, which is not a huge benefit IMO. I would prefer to have hardware, operating system, application server, and IDE options over additional languages (* although it looks like the Java platform might be adding some support for additional languages - there is certainly nothing preventing this).

Both J2EE and .NET are complex. I don't see a lot of small companies hiring an admin and one or two devs and quickly putting up a robust, secure, well designed system. I'll need to play with both more to be sure though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:00 pm 
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Gadget wrote:
I guess someone is willing to run the risk of stirring all the VB programmers here now into a tizzy!!!

My 2.5 cents..... .NET is a J2EE implementation (one of many possible implementations). It saves the architect and developers some time, since they don't have to consider alternative implementations, but it is at the expense of flexibility in both the implementation's design and the software components available. .NET does have multi-language support though, which is not a huge benefit IMO. I would prefer to have hardware, operating system, application server, and IDE options over additional languages (* although it looks like the Java platform might be adding some support for additional languages - there is certainly nothing preventing this).


I'm starting to believe that actually, I don't see how .NET is anymore different than J2EE. Some of the implementation details are different but the concept is the same. I was reading an article about .NET v. J2EE, and while J2EE won in deploying web services/web apps, .NET was better in data synchronization.

Here's the article:
http://www.devx.com/Java/Article/21602/0/page/1

Gadget wrote:
Both J2EE and .NET are complex. I don't see a lot of small companies hiring an admin and one or two devs and quickly putting up a robust, secure, well designed system. I'll need to play with both more to be sure though.


Not at all, I can see them hiring teams of developers and admins. I think in Staples case, they hired a third party to write the code for them instead of doing things in-house, but it's a J2EE implementation. I just thought it neat that a company like Staples got rid of their Windows web service platform and moved onto IBM's Websphere/DB2/J2EE platform. I've never messed around with Websphere, but I have a buddy who sings the tune of Websphere and nothing else, then again, he's done these kinds of jobs for a while now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:26 pm 
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There has been so much unnoticed Java news over the past couple of months! I have 30 tabs open that is going to take all weekend to get through.

IIRC, an application server handled the synchronization... I'll have to look into that.


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 Post subject: Re: Staples changes their IT Infrastructure
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:49 pm 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
Now why would an IT related story be in Programmer's Paradise? Read here first:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1633092,00.asp

Apparently, Staples in moving out of the Microsoft world and into the IBM world. That is, they're no longer focusing their entire IT infrastructure - which was built on Windows Technology - into IBM's websphere (IIRC, it uses Linux). The interesting part is that Staples CIO thinks that .NET is not as flexible nor as manageable as Java, hence the move to J2EE. Another interesting thing is the move to DB2 fro Oracle. I've messed around with DB2 a while back, and might I say that it's a fine RDBMS. Lots of cool features as well as self-healing functions make DB2 a really nice RDBMS. What do you guys think? Do you think that Staples move to J2EE is a good indicator of the competition between .NET and J2xE?


That is Executive speak for "It'll cost us less in the long run, and I won't need as many rolaids justifying things to the CFO." heh,heh. ;-)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:56 pm 
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Quote:
I have a buddy who sings the tune of Websphere and nothing else, then again, he's done these kinds of jobs for a while now.


When you find something that works, and you're finally comfortable with it you tend to stick with it. When IBM throws you the manuals and does all the hard work for you, then it's a lot easier to figure than trying to figure out each individual component of each implementation.

The problem is competing commercial interests. Someone is going to win out not because they have the better solution, but simply becase they have the cash to the kick the asses of their competitor's.

Truthfully, I'd like to see all the major players just come to one consensus on web services deployment. Build to those open specification and the actual technology doesn't mean as much.

There would be no .net vs j2ee debate. There would just be solutions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:26 pm 
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Wolfmann wrote:
Truthfully, I'd like to see all the major players just come to one consensus on web services deployment. Build to those open specification and the actual technology doesn't mean as much.

There would be no .net vs j2ee debate. There would just be solutions.

I actually downloaded a pdf today talking about how to achieve interoperability between the two platforms, if it is good, i'll leave a link for it. I actually believe both Sun and MS are commited to a certain degree of interoperability. Supposedly, Gates said to McNealy something like "you know... both platforms have enough in common that we can do this...", which of course became the punchline to the biggest joke going around JavaOne a couple of weeks later.

In related news, it looks like the spec appserver benchmark will come around pretty soon. MS, Dell, and someone else (hp?) lost a vote to add a performance / price metric to spec, which has never had such a metric in the past. So any day now.... and the bloody hell like war will begin. :)

And don't think for a minute that there will never not be a .NET vs Java debate while both still exist. IMO, this is going to be bigger than the 'this os vs that os' flamewars of the last century.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:54 pm 
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That's a good point. We're heading to an era where the hardware and OS running will be entirely transparent. It will come down to what sort of web service are we using to access this doohicky and that doodad. lol.

Even now you're seeing transparency in the way companies do business. Even less than 2 years ago if there was a new employee survey or something that needed to be done you either did by hand, or they had an app for you to install. Now it's ALL done online. You don't need to physically walk to H.R. anymore...just visit the web portal, sign-in (or if on the intranet just go there) and there you have it everything you need...you can even update your own information, view payroll, everything except personnel files.

I just hope all these web enabled devices get cooler. I haven't met a PDA that I like...that provides functionality that I just say, "Okay, I can't live without this." The Palm probably was the closests, and only then as a replacement to my day timer...but the writing or input interface is so stupid that it's easier just writing.

I want a tricorder, and I want one now, damn it. lol.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:18 am 
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Wolfmann wrote:
I want a tricorder, and I want one now, damn it. lol.

Yeah, a tricorder would be nice. I've come to the conclusion that I could really benefit from a good wearable computer. But I'm sure that is still a ways off in the future....

In the present, I relly like the Treo 600, in fact I have an older Treo 180, the only problem is that they are so damn expensive! And why do you want to refinance your home sir? I need to get a new Treo. A what? Oh nevermind, just put down improved living conditions or something.


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