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 Post subject: game maker the program
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:53 am 
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Have any of you heard of a program called gamemaker. Just game maker. Its a really cool program that allows you to make games really fast and easy. It can make multiplayer online games and even 3d games. The basic version is FREE and it can be downloaded at www.gamemaker.nl and the advace version is only 15 bucks. You can also add snipets of code to make the game look even better. I was j/w if u guys heard bout it.

BTW- do you suggest dark basic for a beginner


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:19 pm 
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gamerfreak wrote:
Have any of you heard of a program called gamemaker. Just game maker. Its a really cool program that allows you to make games really fast and easy. It can make multiplayer online games and even 3d games. The basic version is FREE and it can be downloaded at www.gamemaker.nl and the advace version is only 15 bucks. You can also add snipets of code to make the game look even better. I was j/w if u guys heard bout it.

BTW- do you suggest dark basic for a beginner


Ah come on, don't be a sissy...learn to program, it'll give you some chest hair! :P It's good for the character too!

In all honesty, any kind of 3D dev I did, I did using openGL and a C++ compiler. I did all of the calculations by hand, wrote my own vector class, etc. It's not just cheaper, but you learn the ins and outs of your game, which means that if you really need to tweak, the code is literally in arms reach.

I would seriously implore anyone who wants to make games to seriously start writing code. The more you know what's happening, the more control you have of your game.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:17 pm 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
gamerfreak wrote:
Have any of you heard of a program called gamemaker. Just game maker. Its a really cool program that allows you to make games really fast and easy. It can make multiplayer online games and even 3d games. The basic version is FREE and it can be downloaded at www.gamemaker.nl and the advace version is only 15 bucks. You can also add snipets of code to make the game look even better. I was j/w if u guys heard bout it.

BTW- do you suggest dark basic for a beginner


Ah come on, don't be a sissy...learn to program, it'll give you some chest hair! :P It's good for the character too!

In all honesty, any kind of 3D dev I did, I did using openGL and a C++ compiler. I did all of the calculations by hand, wrote my own vector class, etc. It's not just cheaper, but you learn the ins and outs of your game, which means that if you really need to tweak, the code is literally in arms reach.

I would seriously implore anyone who wants to make games to seriously start writing code. The more you know what's happening, the more control you have of your game.


Not to mention being able to add your own easter eggs to the game. lol


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:37 pm 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
Ah come on, don't be a sissy...learn to program, it'll give you some chest hair! :P It's good for the character too!


I actually :lol: at the chest hair comment. Hehehe.

DJSPIN80 wrote:

In all honesty, any kind of 3D dev I did, I did using openGL and a C++ compiler. I did all of the calculations by hand, wrote my own vector class, etc. It's not just cheaper, but you learn the ins and outs of your game, which means that if you really need to tweak, the code is literally in arms reach.

I would seriously implore anyone who wants to make games to seriously start writing code. The more you know what's happening, the more control you have of your game.


Quoted for emphasis ... read this again, gamerfreak ... DJ speaks the truth.

Also, to answer your question about dark BASIC ... no. No BASIC is ever good for anyone who wants to learn to program. It will teach you bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you move to a more advanced language. :)

I guess what we are all trying to say ... there are no shortcuts. If you want to code games (cool!), you gotta do it the hard way.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:27 am 
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I would strongly encourage you to purchase the Python book that Manta recommended in the other game programming thread. Python is a very good language and is used by many game companies. And, if you have any issues, guess who you can turn to help? :)

If you want to try your hand at modeling, level design, and using some of the other game development tools - just purchase UT2004 dvd edition. Great tools, great instuctional videos.

Also sign up at http://www.gamasutra.com and read, read, read.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:58 pm 
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A couple of more things.

As Gadget says, BASIC anything will teach you bad programming habits, which will force more headaches because you have to unlearn a lot of it.

Secondly, if you don't feel comfortable with C++, you can program games using either Python, Java, and C#.

Python uses OpenGL, and you can use PyGL which is the OpenGL implementation for Python. Python is a very easy languages and enforces a lot of good programming habits. The only thing about Python is that your games will be slow since Python's a scripting language (well, for the most part). However, I wouldn't worry about speed right now first develop good programming habits, learn the mindset, and learn the Math behind it.

Java, you can also use OpenGL. The downside with Java and OpenGL is that OpenGL is built around C, which is purely structured, and Java's OOP. You essentially have to sit down and write your own objects for Java. However, if you look around hard enough, you can find someone who already has a working set of OpenGL tools for Java and just their package.

C# has two ways: OpenGL or DirectX. You can use DirectX 9, but I hate DirectX, so I won't recommend it. Like Java, you can either write your own OpenGL objects or find someone who already has written one.

C/C++ are the best for OpenGL since they are written in OpenGL. And remember to stay away from BASIC anything. If you do pursue learning to program, make sure you tell yourself every night that BASIC anything is the devil.

Oh, and I checked out that Game Maker Program, it sucks. The interface is terrible, it's difficult to work in, and personally, I'd rather suffer through programming but I know every line of code that I write.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:17 pm 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
Java, you can also use OpenGL. The downside with Java and OpenGL is that OpenGL is built around C, which is purely structured, and Java's OOP. You essentially have to sit down and write your own objects for Java. However, if you look around hard enough, you can find someone who already has a working set of OpenGL tools for Java and just their package.

I'll be playing with Java3D and JOGL (Java OpenGL) and posting about both pretty soon. I'll probably hunt down that Python book and implement the asteroids game in Java. I'd like for it to be a JWS app (installs with a single mouse click) and networked so that multiple players can play together at the same time. Use it as a demo when applying to game companies.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:09 am 
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Jipstyle wrote:
Also, to answer your question about dark BASIC ... no. No BASIC is ever good for anyone who wants to learn to program. It will teach you bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you move to a more advanced language. :)

I guess what we are all trying to say ... there are no shortcuts. If you want to code games (cool!), you gotta do it the hard way.


I agree completely. C was my first language, while my friends happiliy went over to Qbasic. They laughed at me, but who's laughing now?! They can't read a bit of C/C++ code, while I can effectively wield a lot of languages, including BASIC (yuk). The main problem I have with games is that I have very few novel ideas: I think of something, it's already done. Not the same with 'general programming'.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:03 pm 
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Cplusplus wrote:
I agree completely. C was my first language, while my friends happiliy went over to Qbasic. They laughed at me, but who's laughing now?! They can't read a bit of C/C++ code, while I can effectively wield a lot of languages, including BASIC (yuk). The main problem I have with games is that I have very few novel ideas: I think of something, it's already done. Not the same with 'general programming'.


Welcome! It is nice to see a new face in here. :)

I agree with your comments about coding games, but I'd separate game design from writing code. Ideally, you have someone who is decent with code (ie., understands the limits of a PC, but also able to imagine enough to push those limits ... especially with the new tech) who designs a fun and interesing game, and then some exceptional coders who are capable of pushing the tech to deliver beautiful content. Two very different abilities, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:35 pm 
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gamerfreak wrote:
Have any of you heard of a program called gamemaker. Just game maker. Its a really cool program that allows you to make games really fast and easy. It can make multiplayer online games and even 3d games. The basic version is FREE and it can be downloaded at www.gamemaker.nl and the advace version is only 15 bucks. You can also add snipets of code to make the game look even better. I was j/w if u guys heard bout it.

BTW- do you suggest dark basic for a beginner


Hiya

Maybe I will check it out. In the 80's there were a lot of what were called "flag" and "counter" languages 'about. I suspect your's might be similar. These are not really languages but apps that allow you to string together code behind the scenes. If it keeps you interested then by all means use it.

HOWEVER; you will find most of them limited and find yourself using tricks to get around the limitations. Further, you will only be learning something useful if you do the following:

Figure out how the program is really Working. I learned enough about flag languages that I think I could program my own now.

AND

Learn a real language - Like Python. Python is just as easy to learn as any "basic" language, infact, you can program in it like basic if you so desire (but thats a bit of a waste of its higher functions).

I know your desire to program a game quick - but you will tyre of short cut programs quickly as you hit walls.

OTOH - does you program allow you to integrate modules it makes into a lower level language? Then it could be a usefull tool I suppose.

Since you will not listen to any of us, go ahead and check it out - play with it. And then look at Python.

I don't see any reason to learn VB or any similar language when Python is just as easy to learn and does much more. Sides, its free.

Manta

Edit: I just checked out the site. Go ahead and play with it - but I highly recommend the dawson book I recommended. You could make games like that for real with not much more effort (nor would you need 35K loc of Delphi 7 to do it).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:13 am 
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Hey Gamerfreak,

I looked at dark basic. Its not to bad. You might want to download the "lite" version.

The problem I see is that to get good use out of it you will need 4 or five modules and they are $50 a pop. But check it out anyway.

Still - I am pushing you towards Python :) It free - forever.

Manta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:24 am 
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I actually read some of that Python book yesterday at Borders. Good stuff.... it could have a non-programmer up and running in pretty short amount of time.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:26 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
No BASIC is ever good for anyone who wants to learn to program. It will teach you bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you move to a more advanced language.
Can you give an example? My son, 13, wants to program games and I tried to start him with Python, but I looked at it and didn't get it. I know BASIC, at least enough to be dangerous, and figured he could start with that.

What bad habits does BASIC teach?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:26 pm 
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Gadget wrote:
I actually read some of that Python book yesterday at Borders. Good stuff.... it could have a non-programmer up and running in pretty short amount of time.


Yep - perfect for non-programmers. I like the Lutz book better, because it actually tells you why certain things are convention and goes into detail about why python is different than other languages. Yet, no programmer newbie would sit through that.

I also like how the last project of the Dawson book is "Asteroids". All these things like DarkBasic and stuff talk about sprites and such like they invented them.

I think DB is OK, but knowing a real language would help one use it better. Plus, its expensive and I bet many of its functions are already availiable for languages like python for free. The demos I saw of DB games were NOT done by programming newbies. Something they fail to mention. I figure if you're gonna invest the time to learn something, make sure its truley expandable

Anyways - ifs its a first language then the Dawson book is the best I have seen.

Manta


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:40 pm 
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RKilroy wrote:
Jipstyle wrote:
No BASIC is ever good for anyone who wants to learn to program. It will teach you bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you move to a more advanced language.
Can you give an example? My son, 13, wants to program games and I tried to start him with Python, but I looked at it and didn't get it. I know BASIC, at least enough to be dangerous, and figured he could start with that.

What bad habits does BASIC teach?


Well, I don't know which ones they are talking about, but one is the strict linear fasion of basic that encourages you do comeup with "tricks". Take a look at my cheese program in the string cheese thread. Its in Python, but it reflects my age. If you can read it you will notiec I pulled a few tricks to get through some of the rules. Like replacing characters with one that could not be in the thread to I could "save" them. This isn't really the proper way to do things and reflects my BASIC/FORTRAN past.

Go pickup the book Gadget and I are talking about (Dawson). Its designed with folks like you in mind and you will find it easy to learn python that way. Trust me - if you know any basic and you have that book you will learn python fast. Then you can help your son. Further, Python knowledge is far more sellable than basic.

Manta


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:29 pm 
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RKilroy wrote:
Jipstyle wrote:
No BASIC is ever good for anyone who wants to learn to program. It will teach you bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you move to a more advanced language.
Can you give an example? My son, 13, wants to program games and I tried to start him with Python, but I looked at it and didn't get it. I know BASIC, at least enough to be dangerous, and figured he could start with that.

What bad habits does BASIC teach?


Just about all of them! :)

I started writing this and my damn power flickered or something and cut it off. ARGH!

For the record, BASIC was my first language. I learned it in elementary school and later had BASIC courses in both junior high and high school. Trust me - the newer languages like Python, Java and C++ are much more powerful, don't limit you, and are not harder to learn either.


The new much shorter version:

Goto's result in ugly spaghetti code that is hard to follow. This has since been outlawed outside of assembly languages.

Gosub. Only provides the illusion of a function. Variables are NOT local. This drives me crazy as you have to be extremely careful about unintended side effects. It is also a nightmare to port basic code to another language for this reason.

Almost a complete lack of local variables. All variables are global. Not so important at first, but makes a huge difference as programs grow in size.

No support for recursioun.

No support for OOP - traditional BASIC like qbasic, not VB.

No real library like in Java or Python, which makes programming substantially faster and easier.


The tutorials at the Python website would be a good place for you to start. They explain the language and general programming concepts and different ideas. If you have some old basic code around, you can convert it to Python and pretty soon you'll start to see how deficient BASIC really is (trust me, I've conveted a good 15 to 20 programs from BASIC to Java - I will *never* write another program in basic!).

The Dawson book will interest the younger crowd because of the game examples - I suspect this will keep a teens attention a bit more than say, oh, data structures! The game complexity increases from simple tic-tac-toe and hangman type games right up to Astrocrash (aka asteroids) with all the animation, sound, graphics, etc. The book seems well documented with links to appropriate websites and reference material.

*never* meaning, unless someone give me a lot of money! :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:35 pm 
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I like dark basic but ill prob go with python.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:08 am 
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Gadget wrote:
The tutorials at the Python website would be a good place for you to start. They explain the language and general programming concepts and different ideas. If you have some old basic code around, you can convert it to Python and pretty soon you'll start to see how deficient BASIC really is (trust me, I've converted a good 15 to 20 programs from BASIC to Java - I will *never* write another program in basic!).
I guess a large part of my problem right now is I don't have something that I want to program. So, since I don't have a problem to resolve I have to make one up. As for converting from BASIC, the last BASIC I programed was in the 80's and none of it was very advanced, mostly for the same reason, I didn't have a problem that I wanted to resolve with a program.


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 Post subject: Re: game maker the program
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:16 am 
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RKilroy wrote:
Gadget wrote:
The tutorials at the Python website would be a good place for you to start. They explain the language and general programming concepts and different ideas. If you have some old basic code around, you can convert it to Python and pretty soon you'll start to see how deficient BASIC really is (trust me, I've converted a good 15 to 20 programs from BASIC to Java - I will *never* write another program in basic!).
I guess a large part of my problem right now is I don't have something that I want to program. So, since I don't have a problem to resolve I have to make one up. As for converting from BASIC, the last BASIC I programed was in the 80's and none of it was very advanced, mostly for the same reason, I didn't have a problem that I wanted to resolve with a program.


Write a program that will take questions out of file of different difficulty levels (depending on user choices) and create a "test" or quiz.

step two: write a program that will allow for questions to be added to the file

step three: write a program that puts the output in HTML format.

Now you a have program to write.

Manta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:21 pm 
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I thought you'd get butt hair from programming.


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