Maximum PC

I did a search on here but didn't find much on the subject.

Not looking for a crazy "who's better" war just what would be best for me.

What I want:
The best possible speed, stability, and performance.

I will be doing a shitload of intense 3D rendering so I want a machine to handle that. I am looking to go dual prcessor. I am going to spend around 3500-4000 and just keep getting RAM with every paycheck until I have like 30 gigs of RAM **insane laughter**

Please if you could let me know the pros and cons of these.

Thanks,

March4Revenge \m/

Intel benches better for 3D rendering, I believe, but you can honestly flip a coin and choose.

Personally, I would build a dual Opteron system. They use the 940 socket which will house the upcoming dual-core Opterons. So, if you want to be REALLY silly, you can build a dually NOW that you can turn into a quad-core board by the end of the year (2 x dual-core Opterons == 4 cores running in SMP).

THAT would be a kick-ass build.

(note:the below readout is obviously based on today's tech, not tommorows)

::AMD::

PROS: Performs RISC, floating point and integer better, so it's best for gaming and really, multimedia. Slightly cheaper.

CONS: Since your so interested in RAM, AMD can only run PC3200 (a.k.a-ddr400).

::Intel::

PROS: Best for music encoding. Can support nearly all the RAM available today. Has the highest clock speed but it's FSB is still too slow, even with 1066.

CONS: Unfortunately clock speed isn't enough when AMD has full core and FSB, so Intel gets pwned by anything AMD has. If comparing to the dothan, it's a different story, but so would your build. Micro-ATX, few slots...it's best for a laptop, and that's what it was designed for.

Conclusion:

Even though AMD has lackluster RAM support, I would still choose them at this current time for an overall winner. When Intel's dual core hits, check back with me. Your AMD PC would be able to do the intense rendering faster than an Intel machine theoretically, but that depends on what variables your basing your results on.



Both companies only support up to 4 gig RAM (on the PCB side), so 30 gb is out of the question.

I agree with Jip.

Since you mention you'd like a Dual proc system it's basically between a Dual Opteron System and Dual Xeon.

Both AMD and Intel are coming out w/ Dual Cores, but I'd go with the Dual Opterons in your case since Xeons share the FSB (Last I heard). Since you're going to be doing intense 3D Rendering, you'll likely need all the bandwidth you can get.

Plus, you did mention you wanted 30 gb, alot of opteron boards support up to 16 gb (only PC2700 though). Sounds like an opteron setup is the way to go. If you decide to stick with AMD socket 939 you can only have up to 4gb.

By PCB do you mean motherboard?
He's looking at Duallys, so 4GB limits are usually only on lower end duallys. Most support 8GB, 16GB or more.

***edit***
Ok, I saw your new post. You beat me to it.

Wow, thanks everyone for replying.

Ok, after reading and digesting your posts it seem as thogh AMD is the only cpu that supports more than 4gb of RAM?

If that's the case, I guess an opteron dual processor system would be the way to go. Is it only the opteron that can do this?

That can go up 16gb of RAM right?

Also on this subjuct, it seems as though, from all the cpus I have looked at on Newegg, that intels beat out AMD in FSB. They always have higher FSB.

Shouldn't this be crucial in deciding which cpu to go with?


Also, as far as Dual Core goes, I think I may wait on that due to the fact that I reasd an article that say in addition to the chips being super pricey, they will also run slower than the fastest CPU out. This is only in the beginning tho.

Here's the link:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles1166/

No, for example Tyans S2676UARF Dual Xeon mobo supports up to 16 gb RAM. Most Dual opteron mobos do too.



No, the xeon (server level procs) can also do this, but regular pentium 4's and socket 939 procs can only go to 4 gb, some only to 3gb.



Intel dosen't beat AMD on FSB, not at all. AMD's bus runs at full core speed which means if the AMD proc runs at 2.4 Ghz, then so does the FSB. Intel's fastest currently is 1066. AMD's fast speed does have a downfall however. Due to the fact that it's memory controller is built in, it's limited to DDR400 maximum, whereas Intel is not and can run @ DDR2 and above levels.

Ok ok well then (great reply btw IX)

Damn, that Tyran mobo is pricey!!

I still don't know what the hell I should get lol!

I saved up all this cashish and I just want to get the fastest, best cooling, most performance efficient machine out there - no matter the price. If the tyan is the only mobo that will allow all that RAM I guess I'll have to shell out.

I will be doing serious gaming and 3d rending and graphic arts.

So what should I go with?

Hey no problem M4R. You may not need to really go Dual optys like Jip stated, he was just trying to make you a screaming system, he may have forgot about the price.

Two 2Ghz Opterons and say, the amazing Tyan Thunder K8W S2885ANRF alone will cost you $1451.

If you want to do intensive graphic work and gaming, you can do that with a 3500+, a 6800 GT and 2 gig RAM.

Programs like 3ds MAX eat all the RAM you can give, but 2 gig would be sufficient, and you can add up to 4.

If the price is throwing you, I would get something like the MSI K8N SLI Platinum (nForce 4 chipset), a 3500+ (winchester core) or a 4000+, Two 6600 GT's and 2 gig Crucial Ballistix RAM (PC3200-ddr400). In the end, you will have a monster comp that will beat the dual optys on gaming, but not rendering. But they wont do bad either.

IF your going to be doing more rendering then anything, you really may want to stick with the Dual Optys because you will beable to use more RAM.

It's your choice young padawan, we can only show you the different directions

Hahaha thanks man.

Well, price isn't an issue as I have saved up a lot for this so I would love to go with whatever would rape those RAM intensive apps like 3ds max. If that menas dual Opterons and the tyan, so be it. I want the BEST!

Some one told me that for gaming, stick with a single processor due to cache latency and scarcity of multi-threads?

Does this make sense?

Oh and what about DDR-2 capabilities - AMD support it and is it worh it?

How much RAM are you needing? I thought you were half-kidding about the 30GB. That's a lot of memory.

If you're requiring that much memory, I'd be going Dual minimum, possibly Quad Procs...assuming this is for a production system (Time is money. ). If it's for home, then Definitely Dual (To save money).

Tyan Thunder K8WE Dual Opteron, Up to 16GB Memory, 2x Full PCI-E 16x slots, SATA-II W/ NVRaid, Dual Gigabit LAN, Two independent 64-bit PCI-X buses (PCI-X133, PCI-X100) and (optional) Scsi U320 = Orgasmic

You mentioned that You saved up the money for this system which leads me to believe this is for home. So, I'd recommend this one for 2 reasons. 1.) Quad Proc is $$ for home use 2.) You mention 'serious gaming'. This has 2x FULL PCI-E 16x Slots for SLI lovin'.

March4Revenge, this is a long post, but I suggest reading all of it as well as the links and also do some of your own research. If you are going to spend $4000-$5000 on a rig, you better know what you're buying.

As far as I know, the AMD Opterons (which I recommend since Xeons are limited to 800MHz bus shared) run bus at HTT (HyperTransport Technology) link speed at 800MHz and 1000MHz(1600MHz and 2000MHz effective from 2-way traffic). Single Xeon/P4 benchmark better in render than Opteron/AMD64 because Intel has HT (HyperThreading). The reverse is true in gaming because gaming demands higher memory bandwidth which AMD wins because of the integrated controller.

The specs change once we go to Dual-CPU setups (That's my route btw). I would say that the Workstation so far has been in a different time-zone until now... Abit (surprisingly), IWill, and Tyan are now taking advantage of nVidia's nForce4 professional chips (which LinuxHardware.org explains). The result is high-end workstation (3D rendering and the like) as well as high-end gaming (SLI configurations).

Dual Opteron vs Dual Xeon...

1) Xeon: Doing a quick search, most Xeons are on a 533 bus with the 800s just starting out. To be honest, I wouldn't settle for anything less than the 800bus right now (with EMT64). That immediately puts you at $379 per CPU for the Intel Xeon 3.2EA GHz retail (based on the Nocona core & socket 604). Both the 533s and the 800s SHARE the same bus and the second Xeon has to get through the first Xeon to access memory. Sound inefficient?

2) Opteron: Most of the Opterons run at the 1600MHz HT bus (800 MHz both ways). This paired with the fact that the memory controller on the CPU, you have VERY fast memory access. AMD did their homework for scalability. When you add a second Opteron, the second one has it's own memory controller and it gets used as well... You have separated HT links for EACH cpu. This also allows for a technology called NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Access) that allows each processor to access it's own memory at unheard of rates (I've seen over 10GB/s in benchmarks)! Also, Opterons start cheaper (you need the 2xx seriers in order for 2-way or 2-CPU setups).

You (March4Revenge) sound a lot like me. I want gaming, 3D rendering up the wazoo, and the best (nearly) I can get, and I want the best bang for the buck. I am also planning on spending about $3000-$4500 per system (I plan on 3 of these). Dual-CPU + SLI is getting me all giddy. I am personally looking at the Abit WN-2S+ which boasts of features such as Dual-Opteron (1600MHz is listed for HT, but I'm sure that it will also support 2000MHz when the Opt252 becomes available), SLI in 8x/8x PCIE mode, 4-port SATAII (which may be just bearly enough... I would like to see 8, but I will only be using 4), and support for un-buffered DDR400 ram! I expect this board to overclock as well. The dings... Only 8GB support (I only plan on using 4GB) and you HAVE to fill up all four slots. This board should be available in mid to late March. The IWill DK8EW looks to be a formitable foe (here's a link to the SLI-gimped version since I don't have IWill's link for the EW). This board will support up to 16GB RAM, but has an onboard ATI RageXL VGA controller (ewwh, suppress it if you know what's good for you). This board will also support SLI (8x/8x) config. Both have only the nForce Pro 2200 chipset + AMD 8131 PCI-X Tunnel chip (which is why they are limited to 8x/8x in SLI mode). The Tyan K8WE(s2895) is the best solution, also the most expensive (I like the Abit on as it will be <$300). It boasts 16GB max RAM, SLI in 16x/16x mode and has the most PCIE links (thanks to the setup: nForce Pro 2200 + nForce Pro 2050 + 8131 PCI-X Tunnel).

I'm personally leaning towards 2 Opteron 246s (Overclocks HT buss @ about 2020MHz or so) 4GB (4x1GB DDR400 low latency un-buffered RAM), 2-3 SATA 10K raptors AID0, 1 SATA media drive for storage, Abit WN-2S+, DVD, DVD+/-RW dual layer, 6800GT(s) eventually in SLI mode, watercooled... You will need close to a 660W PSU for all this. Pretty beefy rig.

As for you post about DDR2 concerns... Intel's bottleneck is the bus and the memory controller. DDR2 flaunts that bottleneck even more. Like I said before, NUMA on DDR400 (honestly man, you can overclock the memory to DDR500 easily with high quality Samsung TCCD DDR400 PC3200 RAM which at 200 the timings run at 2-2-2-5 timings) kicks Intel already on single CPU setups. Intels memory access does not increase with Dual-CPUs, but AMD does with NUMA.

*Special Note* Don't start buying components until mid-late march. That should be the end of Q1 when Intel and AMD release their latest and greatest and knock prices of existing down. Also, don't buy any of the mobos without reading reviews. I am waiting for the Abit reveiw and to see if un-buffered is really possible on a socket 940. Also, don't crap yourself out on RAM only going for capacity and now quality. I suggest anything with the Samsung TCCD chip for best overclocking. Also for the CPUs (Opteron) don't go for the 250s as they will have little overhead for overclocking the HT. The 246 has a lower multiplier and will give you more room to up the HyperTransport bus which gives you your faster memory access.

Hope this helps! I have done a LOT of research and would be happy to help! Cheers!

Arquero

Wow, this is amazing. thanks for a rad reply (slayer rules btw).

One question - that model Tyan mobo says it only supports the Opteron 200 series? Does that mean I could still use dual Opty 250's?

Oh and dude, what's up with the Thunder K8QS Pro (S4882)?

4 cpu's, 32 gb of RAM? That's insane. And tempting.

and yes it is for home, good advice.

thx,
M4R[/url]

Yeah, that falls under the 200 series. I think they mean that it won't support the 800 series (For 4-8 way systems)

Hell Yeah!

I didn't take time to read that loooooong post above, but if it didn't say anything about it, Rdram is ok aside from the fact that it's a good bit more expensive than regular ram and it's got to be used in matching pairs.

http://www.computer-memory-store.com/25 ... dules.html


That's not as high as I remember it being, however if you're looking to put a lot of ram in your system, there's better ram out there at a lower cost....

Nice post Arquero...the only thing I could add is I avoid telling people to run @ 2-2-2-5 timings on RAM on an AMD 64 system (including socket 940). It's best to set Tras to 10 instead of 5 for the best performance results.