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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:56 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Thanks....and yea I was planning to overclock the CPU but even if I didn't, it would at least be nice to know that I can for only $20 more as a safety measure. And I guess to shave off dollars I'll just stick to the lower end mobo in black because $200 is just insane for ASUS if I'm only buying it for its colors.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:03 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Sorry for the multiple posts but I forgot to ask. Is the Wattage to much for this kind of system? I was thinking of dropping it to 650W, opinions?


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:30 pm 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5544
For a single GPU setup, about 550W-600W is the most you'll need. For a dual GPU setup, you'll want at least 750W.

Regarding the motherboard, $130 is about the price mark when you can get all the high-end I/O. When you pay more, it's mostly for extra high-end I/O or other features that are nice to have. Pick the motherboard based on your needs (and think hard if you'll want spend extra for something you 'may' use).


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:02 pm 
Klamath
Klamath

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 286
^ What he said :mrgreen:

Re your PSU, I just assumed it was being recycled from a previous build? I guess that's not accurate. I don't know anything about Lepa, but $140 for a 700 watt PSU is kinda high. It's yellow though! Sorry couldn't resist.

Yeah, I'm not a big proponent of "Gold" certified PSUs, really just because of the cost. And I'm not familiar with the insides of a Carbide 300, but do you want modular, semi or are you good with zip ties? Other than the brand and power rating, those two factors (certified rating and the modular option) will mostly determine the cost of a PSU. For a small form factor or in limited space, modular or semi-modular PSUs can be well worth ANY added cost. But it may be an unnecessary luxury if it's a relatively easy build with plenty of room, or if you are going to leave the insides all messy anyway, or if you plan to build it once and never open it again, or etc etc.

Here are a few suggestions:
- If you must have a Lepa, this LEPA B650-SA 650W at $64 (after rebate) seems to have the basics you need - it's 80 plus bronze certified, but not modular.
- If you must have a Lepa Gold, this LEPA G Series G650-MAS 650W at $85 (after rebate) is both gold and modular.
- Otherwise, this SeaSonic M12II 650 SS-650AM 650W at $90 (after promo) is solid - bronze and semi-modular.
- Also, this SeaSonic S12II 620 Bronze 620W at $68 (after promo) should suffice your build, too. It's bronze but not modular.

Lots of people consider Seasonic top of mind when it comes to PSUs. Imho, you can add, for the most part, Corsair, PC Power & Cooling, Cooler Master, Antec, OCZ, Enermax and maybe others. Some of the above may have a stinker or two, but they are generally strong brands. I think a few use re-badged Seasonics or parts from Seasonic or something like that.

Congrats on your decisions thus far!


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:51 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Thanks guys, Yes Lepa is not a necessity. Any PSU will do for me, the only reason I picked them was because of all the good things I've been reading about them. I was looking at OCZ, Antec, Kingwin, Silverstone, Cooler Master, Corsair and even Rosewill lol. My old build has a OCZ PSU and it's def not modular so everything is messy (something i do regret because now three of my case fans are dead :( ) In fact my OCZ PSU is not even certified at all lol but I thought having a good certified one would help but if not then it doesn't matter which I take. I think though a modular would be nice so I have better organization this time. And yea couldn't care less about the colors on it as long as it didn't have LED's on it that don't match the build.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:06 am 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5544
I'm so over choosing which PSU brand that I'm basically not going to bother looking at anything other than Seasonic. They're consistently rated as one of the best PSU makers.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:12 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Going back to Video cards real quick. Isn't the idea that the bigger the bus interface, the better? For example the GTX 670 is 256 bit. the 660 ti is 192. However my current GTX 260 is 448, why much bigger? Also I was thinking since the case can accommodate more fans,l was going to buy at least 5 Red LED fans for the case to further match the build as well as more airflow obviously. Don't really care about how much noise they will make...at least I doubt it will sound like a hurricane otherwise then I have an issue but I brought the fans up because will it affect the wattage on my PSU greatly or stick to 650 W?


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:58 pm 
Klamath
Klamath

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 286
Don't worry about memory interface, clock speeds, stuff like that when comparing two different architectures - in this case, Fermi (for the GTX 480) vs Kepler (GTX 670 of 660). Kepler is more efficient and faster.

I'm not completely sure, but one typical 120 mm case fan is about 5 watts give or take. Do you really need at least five though? I'm not familiar with the Carbide 300, but perhaps start off with a typical setup (I'm guessing 3 or 4) and add as needed. That's imho of course.

It seems the Carbide series is popular, so I am sure there are builds featured on sites here and there that you may research up on. I'm nearly certain you will find some forum threads dedicated to builds with your selected case. Hours of reading fun :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:09 am 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5544
Killjoy7492 wrote:
Going back to Video cards real quick. Isn't the idea that the bigger the bus interface, the better? For example the GTX 670 is 256 bit. the 660 ti is 192. However my current GTX 260 is 448, why much bigger? Also I was thinking since the case can accommodate more fans,l was going to buy at least 5 Red LED fans for the case to further match the build as well as more airflow obviously. Don't really care about how much noise they will make...at least I doubt it will sound like a hurricane otherwise then I have an issue but I brought the fans up because will it affect the wattage on my PSU greatly or stick to 650 W?

There's a quick and dirty formula for estimating the bandwidth of video card memory (bus width / 8 * speed), but bandwidth isn't really a good measurement of performance. In fact, video card memory isn't a really good indicator of performance anyway. There are plenty of reviews that show memory doesn't really add much. At least, at the higher end, as it does make a difference on the lower end (but not drastically so).

You should also think about your fan setup and whether or not you really need those fans. Strategic placement and direction is better than how many you have at times.

And if video card power consumption hasn't changed drastically last time I cared, a single card setup at its worst will chew up 300W-400W. Fans sip power.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:04 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Ok, what I should probably do then is to run the build without any additional fans to see if it suffices. Then determine at that moment if I'll need more or not (most likely not). My budget believe it or not allows for LGA 2011 and I was seriously considering it because of the performance and what not but I don't think I will ever push my build that far that I would seriously ever need that kind of power but it would've been comforting to know that I would have it in case. Your opinions on 2011 vs 1155? One compromise I def would've made was to take the i7-3820 and it can't overclock vs the i5-3570k which can.

P.S. thanks for all your help thus far guys :) helps me weigh all options.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:34 pm 
Klamath
Klamath

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 286
I don't know too much about that Sandy-E i7-3820 CPU, but I read it's partially locked and has "only" four cores instead of six. A gaming chip it is not - it's very similar to a Core i5-3570K and costs more. I'm less certain about this part, but I read about some potential memory latency issues as well. A budget extreme CPU for a niche demographic perhaps? I'm not really certain who this chip was made for - possibly it was a chip Intel threw out there just to get some buyers in anticipation of Ivy?

In any case, I think Ivy is what you want. If you have cash left over, do something nice for you folks or take your significant other out for a end of summer picnic or go see a live musical or impulse buy something geeky... I got more if you need :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:22 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Yea Ivy is better money wise but I ran into something interesting today. I was looking at the specs on Intel's website about the i3-2220 vs the i5-3570K. The reason? because Newegg states that the 2220 has hyper threading while the i5 does not and Intel confirms that on their site. I thought HT is like really intense stuff usually held reserve for the i7's but why wouldn't a unlocked processor have it? Clearly I'm lost. Also I'm still trying to save money by trying to recycle some of my old builds pieces like the optical drive and case and trying to put that saved money towards an additional GPU and bigger PSU which I know is probably Impossible considering I wouldn't be saving that much money lol. Also I found(thanks to the November 2012 issue of Maximum PC) that Gigabyte board with thunderbolt that they were reviewing. Should I consider that over my original mobo choice? As you can see I'm trying to go as future proof as possible lol.

My current desktop specs if needed:
CPU: LGA 775 Intel Core 2 Duo E8400
RAM: OCZ SLI-Ready Edition 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 800
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Blue WD5000AAKS 500GB
GPU: EVGA Superclocked GTX 260
Optical: ASUS Black Blu-Ray Combo
PSU: OCZ StealthXStream OCZ600SXS 600W
Case: Antec Nine Hundred Black
Mobo: ASUS P5N-D LGA 775 Mobo
Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster T190

The OCZ PSU just failed on me the other day after 4 years. Ran pretty good up till now but I saw the signs but Ignored it so I deserve it. I'm currently typing this using my dads build that I made for him since he is a gamer also and his build is 2 years younger and obviously more advanced(I'm so jealous...one reason I must make this new build lmao)


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:14 am 
Klamath
Klamath

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 286
Not certain to what you refer re an i3-2220. In fact, I don't see that CPU on the EGG - all I see is something like this Intel Core i3-3220. In any case, i5 > i3.

Recycle any and all parts that make sense. Optical drive, kb & mouse, monitor, PSU, etc. If usable, why not?

I don't recall what mobo you had in mind, though I scrolled back a few posts and read mention of the Gigabyte Sniper. If you want Thunderbolt and see use for it, by all means get it. But I've read a couple articles re Thunderbolt and don't recall it of any importance to PCs any time soon. I honestly don't know much about it, but it seems like Firewire lol. No mobos have it now, but if you must have it, get a card. Perhaps someone else can comment on Thunderbolt better?

Killjoy7492 wrote:
...My current desktop specs if needed:
CPU: LGA 775 Intel Core 2 Duo E8400
RAM: OCZ SLI-Ready Edition 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 800
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Blue WD5000AAKS 500GB
GPU: EVGA Superclocked GTX 260
Optical: ASUS Black Blu-Ray Combo
PSU: OCZ StealthXStream OCZ600SXS 600W
Case: Antec Nine Hundred Black
Mobo: ASUS P5N-D LGA 775 Mobo
Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster T190 ...

Err... what is it you want to do again? And why the upgrade/new build? Games played at what resolution? You keeping that 19-inch panel? Budget?


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:43 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Yea sorry that is the i3 that I was referring to.

I am looking to build the new pc primarily for these two reasons: Graphics and Storage.... My GTX 260 isn't obsolete yet but it has been challenged by some current games where I have to tone down the graphic details to run smoothly. Also I'm a HUGE Total War fan and Rome Total War 2 is coming out next year and I want to be ready for that. Also I was going to go for SLI but for money sakes I'll stick to one GTX 670 but get one that has 4gb of VRAM. The storage issue is worse in my opinion because I keep finding that I'm always down to less than 20GB of space left then I have to keep deleting stuff I don't want to get rid of. I do have an External HDD that I use to back up my files but I also use it for my side job doing computer work for people so I want to have a pc with bigger storage just for my personal things. The SSD in the new build is not necessary so I can leave it out to save money but I need to move to a new platform because my mobo doesn't support Sata 6Gb/s. All in all, the pc doesn't have to be future proof to the max as long as it will last me an easy 5 years plus.

My budget is $1500 but I can increase if needed but only to about $1600. The resolution of my new monitor is 1920 x 1080 and I wasn't planning to keep my 19 inch, I was planning to sell it with the entire system that I posted here to offset some of the cost and then start a new build from scratch but if I do keep it then I'll just use it as a extending screen and hold the other parts in storage. On rare occasions however, I wanted to have the pc hooked up to my HDTV. Right now I only have a 37 inch but I am looking to buy at least a 50 inch, if money permits then a 60 inch. If not the tv, then I would hook it up to my 7.1 surround sound system directly for games and what not.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:45 pm 
Klamath
Klamath

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 286
hindolio wrote:

I put this build together for you and wondered why I selected some of the parts. After reading more posts, I realize I took your build and just switched a few items. In any case, how do you feel about the build now and why?

In any case and with your reply above and imho, here are a couple things I'd consider:

- A cheaper GPU than the GTX 670, like the GTX 660 Ti (Galaxy has a 3 GB version) or Radeon 7950.
I don't know how demanding Rome Total War 2 will be, but if Total War Shogun 2 is any indication, a GTX 660 Ti does 112 FPS at 1900 x 1200 and high settings while a Radeon 7950 gets 94 FPS. Check out the comparison between the two cards here:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/550?vs=647

- A good 600+ watt PSU like this Seasonic S12II 620 Bronze at $80.

- Do get an SSD and at least 128 GB, if not 256 GB. They've been running at about $80 (128 GB) and $160 (256 GB), depending on the model and sale.

- Look for sales and deals and pounce. For example, this Seasonic 750 Gold and modular PSU was on sale for $110 a few days ago. It's still not bad at $128, but not as "must-have" at $110 imho, especailly when compared to the 620 watt bronze non-modular PSU I suggested above at $80.

- Speaking of which, you can try to "future-proof" your build by doing stuff like getting a more-than-you-can-possibly-use-right-now 750 watt PSU instead of a very-comfortable-and-appropriate 620 watt PSU (imho, this generally doesn't makes sense). Or by getting the GTX 670, which you will enjoy and get more out of, over a weaker GPU (this does make sense). But you have must realize that there are things that can't be future-proofed in any build. For example, when Haswell (new CPU) comes out probably next year, it will not work with the mobo in your build because it will be a different socket. What I am trying to say is that 5 years is a long time in technology. Most likely, this build will last you that long and that is all I can say.

- Sell your old build if possible to help pay for your new one. If not, you can definitely reuse parts like the case, optical drive, HDD and probably your PSU (I think you have the needed connections).


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:21 am 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5544
Just some 2 cents on "future proofing" something.

Don't think just because the next generation of parts is out, your parts are automatically obsolete. Technically yes, they are. But to you, you have your own requirements. Otherwise, why are we still using microcontrollers based on CPUs from the late 70s? The only hardware I've seen where developers jump on the features almost right away are GPUs, mostly because they actually conform to what software wants to do, and then optimize for that. Unlike CPUs, where software has to conform to the hardware, which may take another generation or two before people start embracing it. For instance, how long did it take before a lot of software released started requiring MMX? How long did it take before they simply dropped it because it was ubiquitous anyway?

In other words, don't worry about future-proofing so much. Especially a computer meant to play games. The GPU most of the time in a new build is the bottleneck, not the CPU.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:25 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Yea guys I see both your points on over-thinking future proof and even my current machine disproves what I think lol. Hindolio, I love the build but I was able to make a new list that fits my budget:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/jvPz

Im recycling the following from my previous build:
Hyper 212 Plus CPU fan
Antec 900 case
Asus Blu ray drive
Keyboard
Mouse

The following I have already purchased for the next build:
Samsung S24B350HL 23.6" Monitor

As for my new list, to save more money I can get rid of one pair of RAM sticks because at the moment 16gb is a little overkill. I am a little skeptical about taking the Seasonic PSU only because of the ratings on Pc Part Picker and Newegg. I found this Rosewill 750W With better ratings. I don't care about the certifications or price as long as the PSU is good and will last years (Since my current build's PSU didn't have any cert and lasted 4 years). I was surprised to see that Pc Part Picker says the build will only use about 600W altogether but I want to play it safe and still get a 750W.

Also since we both agree that having 670's over 660's would be better, then I can take advantage of the two EVGA cards on sale. Also I really haven't considered Radeon cards because since the GTX 600 series came out after the HD 7000 series, I just assume that performance is better in Nvidia's favor but which cards would match up to the GTX 670? I will consider that option as long as the crossfire is compatible with the PSU and Mobo (I slightly like Nvidia more only because their GPU interfaces are generally easier for me to understand vs Catalyst, my dads build has crossfire HD 6870's so I've had some experience with the interface). All in all my main concern is that I want to be able to blow every game out of the water with graphics and cpu. I don't want my pc to slow down for anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:33 pm 
Klamath
Klamath

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 286
Imho, if you are going to SLI or Crossfire, do spend the extra $14 or so and go with the Seasonic Gold over that Rosewill. I know nothing about that Rosewill Gold certified PSU, so perhaps I am being a little unfair, but Seasonic is by a wide margin, the top PSU maker right now. So I am just going by brand. Google Seasonic.

Seasonic makes PSUs and PSU components for other brands, like Corsair and PC Power & Cooling (which are themselves considered top PSU brands) as well as others. I believe Rosewell is a house, value-oriented brand for the Egg. Some stuff is cheap as heck and some is okay methinks. But I don't know much else.

That's that.

Awesome you are able to recycle so much. Meh if you really really want the extra RAM, it's only $40 so knock yourself out.

But err... why are you getting two GTX 670s for a single 24-inch monitor? I could be wrong, could be I guess, but I believe you will get nothing extra from a GTX 670 SLI vs a single GTX 670 at 1080 resolution. Benchmarks may look better. And even if you are planning to do Surround on 3 monitors, personally I'd suggest starting out with a single GTX 670 and later adding a second if desired.

Going back though, 750 watt PSU for SLI is good. If not SLIing, then a 600 watt PSU is good. These numbers are sorta recommended minimums, because of course a 750 PSU is imho better than 600 watts for a single GPU.


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:36 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:40 pm
Posts: 43
Ok I'll stick with the Seasonic then, again as long as it will last, that is my concern. As for the SLI issue, I just thought that having two cards would benefit me in the long run with games than just one card. As much as I've had a fantasy about having more than one display, it was never a need for me nor would I have the funds to buy two more monitors and go SLI. At this point only one or the other. I know I'll save a lot of money going with only one but won't performance drop by a good margin? And what about my previous question when you brought up the Radeons? Is there an equivalent card to the GTX 670 in their lineup that I should consider?


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 Post subject: Re: Can't Decide on CPU and GPU
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:37 pm 
Klamath
Klamath

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:24 pm
Posts: 286
I'm not certain if this is accurate across the board, but here is Anandtech's bench of the GTX 670 vs GTX 690. I believe a GTX 690 is more or less on par with two GTX 670s in SLI. Again, I'm not certain though.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/598?vs=586

Since you are gaming at 1080, pay specific attention to the 1920 x 1200 resolution measurements (that's the closest to your 1920 x 1080). Unless you want to do something specific (for example, 120 FPS on a 120 Hz panel) I do not believe you will gain much if anything by getting two GTX 670s instead of one. Sure benchmarks will be 60-80% better, but real gameplay will be little changed plus there is the issue of micro-stutter and setup issues with SLI to consider. Do you need/want 117 FPS on BF3 or is 62 FPS enough?

If you are concerned about gameplay a year or two from now, by that time, a newer and better and cheaper single GPU solution will probably be available. Imho, if you have the extra cash, I would opt for a bigger or better single monitor - a 24-inch 16:10 IPS or decent 27 or 30-inch panel. And imho, a single GTX 670 is sufficient there too, but that is debatable I guess.

Re your question about comparable Radeons, I believe the 7950 is a little slower and the 7970 is a little faster than a GTX 670. It depends on the game, settings and resolution though. Currently, pricing more or less reflects performance for those three cards.


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