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 Post subject: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:39 am 
8086
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I'm getting annoyed at seeing even the magazine even mention the idea of booting from large drives, why?

Seriously, you're going to put 2TB of data on your OS drive? Any one worth their weight in salt in regards to hardware has at one point or another been forced to format their OS drive clean so why risk leaving your personal/work data on the same drive? Now I'm not talking about your boss at work who plays Solitaire and has a spreadsheet for who gets to work what hours, I'm talking about us.

Even before most of us knew what SSD's were I was using two drive setups. Now here's another thing, Vista sucks and Windows 7 sucks worse. Yeah you heard me! With XP all you have to do is right-click on the My Documents folder and you can move the entire folder in a few clicks. I went over to a neighbor's house and attempted to move their My Documents folder however even after I thought I had done that in 7 it still was saving everything from Firefox and IE to the C:\ and keep in mind that the vast bulk of useful features in XP were removed in Vista and 7. Now maybe there is a way to make 7 not suck so horribly bad for production (I actually use my computer for much more then booting and opening a game and ignoring the OS as I work extensively with my file system) though 7 requires way too many steps to achieve half of what you can still do with XP.

Before SSD's I would have either used a Raptor or the largest single platter HD (up to about 120GB) I could get my hands on. Now adays you can get a 128GB SSD for around $200-$250 and use that for booting. Let's also keep in mind that if you're going to boot from the same drive your personal/work files are on you're going to wear the drive down that much faster and most people I've talked with aren't running a RAID 1 or backing up their data in any way.

I can see some people trying to boot from a 2 or 3TB drive just to see if they can though for a serious setup that would put someone in a very tenuous situation in general.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:37 pm 
Celeron
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You know you can just partition your hard drive? Clean installs and storage on the same hard drive. Works well, you should try it.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:23 am 
Java Junkie
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JAB Creations wrote:
I'm getting annoyed at seeing even the magazine even mention the idea of booting from large drives, why?

Seriously, you're going to put 2TB of data on your OS drive? Any one worth their weight in salt in regards to hardware has at one point or another been forced to format their OS drive clean so why risk leaving your personal/work data on the same drive? Now I'm not talking about your boss at work who plays Solitaire and has a spreadsheet for who gets to work what hours, I'm talking about us.


Anyone worth their salt will partition their large drives so that the OS is isolated and easy to reinstall without risking data.

Anyone worth their salt will also backup their data regularly so that risk is mitigated.

Quote:
Even before most of us knew what SSD's were I was using two drive setups. Now here's another thing, Vista sucks and Windows 7 sucks worse. Yeah you heard me! With XP all you have to do is right-click on the My Documents folder and you can move the entire folder in a few clicks. I went over to a neighbor's house and attempted to move their My Documents folder however even after I thought I had done that in 7 it still was saving everything from Firefox and IE to the C:\ and keep in mind that the vast bulk of useful features in XP were removed in Vista and 7. Now maybe there is a way to make 7 not suck so horribly bad for production (I actually use my computer for much more then booting and opening a game and ignoring the OS as I work extensively with my file system) though 7 requires way too many steps to achieve half of what you can still do with XP.


You're just ignorant of the changes made to the UI. If you owned the OS and used it regularly, you'd recognise what you've written as bunk.

Quote:
Before SSD's I would have either used a Raptor or the largest single platter HD (up to about 120GB) I could get my hands on. Now adays you can get a 128GB SSD for around $200-$250 and use that for booting. Let's also keep in mind that if you're going to boot from the same drive your personal/work files are on you're going to wear the drive down that much faster and most people I've talked with aren't running a RAID 1 or backing up their data in any way.


The fact that people aren't backing up their data is not a reason to spend more on additional hardware. They need to be educated.

I do find it amusing that you're proposing expensive hardware solutions to problems that are easily solved in software ... and that in another thread, you whine that Intel's CPUs are too expensive. That's pretty funny.

Quote:
I can see some people trying to boot from a 2 or 3TB drive just to see if they can though for a serious setup that would put someone in a very tenuous situation in general.


No, it wouldn't.

Not having a backup plan would put you in a tenuous situation. Not partitioning your drive appropriately may put you in a tenuous situation. Assuming that your drive will never fail is asking for trouble. But multiple drives is not the only solution available and it is the most expensive solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:00 pm 
Team Dino
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I would boot from a 3(+) TB drive if I owned one and my system could handle it all in one chunk.

Why? DVR purposes. Windows 7 Media Center makes for a mighty fine DVR.

Sure, 2 TBs of data gets you around 218 +/- hours of HD recording, but why not be able to increase it to 327 +/- hours of HD recording.

Yes, I could partition it with 40 to 50 GBs for the OS and the rest as a GUID partition for DVR storage, but even if the OS took a dive, I'd still lose any recordings flagged with DRM.

If anything I would want a second drive for swap purposes.

n0b0dykn0ws


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:48 pm 
Willamette
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JAB Creations wrote:
Before SSD's I would have either used a Raptor or the largest single platter HD (up to about 120GB) I could get my hands on


Ya see that's where your wrong again. Now most folks will acknowledge I'm not the smartest nor most experienced on these forums. However, I have found through "actually reading" up on hard drives that you are wrong about using a 120ish gig "single platter" drive for the best performance.

Read these 2 articles and you will find that, in fact, the fastest setup is a fast multi-platter drive that you "clip" to about 20-25% capacity before installing your OS/programs. You must get a large enough drive so that after clipping your net drive size is what you want for your OS/program drive. How do I know this? First I read these 2 articles:

http://www.techwarelabs.com/seagate_1-5tb-mod/
http://www.techwarelabs.com/seagate-1-5-tb-mod-part-2/

Then I put my money where My mouth was and bought a 1.5 Tb Seagate 7200.12 drive and tried it. It worked just as advertised. In fact, barring random seek times, it makes stock Raptors overpriced "gadgets". Yes, you can do the same to a Raptor. But at what price? I got my Seagate for $139 (I believe) at the time. Why because this way your only using the very outer most edges of the drive. Now I won't try to put it in the class of a good SSD but it gets the job done.

In fact I then tried a couple of single platter 500 Gig Samsung F3's clipped to 120 gig and tried them out before and after and in raid 0. It still worked but I believe it would been better still with at least the 1 Tb versions of the F3 as they are very fast drives. Suffice to say it was the 1st time I saw Win 7 or Vista give me a score of 6.0 on the Experience Index. Until the raid 0 F3's I could never get the HDD over 5.9.

Would I do this again? At this point in time no, I would just use the 1 Tb F3 as is, partitioned to 256 gig for the OS and call it a day. Why? Because I am working myself up to a SSD for Christmas. I only posted this to let you know that as in your other thread you are laboring under some serious misapprehensions. It is a perfectly valid recommendation to go big for your 1st installation then when you can get and SSD recycle it to a data drive.

JAB Creations wrote:
attempted to move their My Documents folder however even after I thought I had done that in 7 it still was saving everything from Firefox and IE to the C:\ and keep in mind that the vast bulk of useful features in XP were removed in Vista and 7. Now maybe there is a way to make 7 not suck so horribly bad for production (I actually use my computer for much more then booting and opening a game and ignoring the OS as I work extensively with my file system) though 7 requires way too many steps to achieve half of what you can still do with XP.


It's a shame folks can get on tech forums and just spout trash (high lighted portion of quote) and maybe lead a noobe astray. But did you think that maybe you forgot that user data, cookies, bookmarks, etc from browsers get saved in Documents and Settings and, now, in other places like the Program Data folder? Where is that? On the C:/ drive. Windows 7 is a great OS. Even and idiot like me can use it. Do I need help at times yes? Do I get the help I need? Almost always. Was it any different with XP? No.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:41 pm 
8086
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Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:03 am
Posts: 28
I Partitioning your hard drive doesn't give you better performance, the OS is still using the same physical hard drive! It makes no sense to encode video and run your OS off the same physical hard drive in example, you're better off using a separate drive. Since hard drives are the slowest component in a system when it comes to waiting to use something it makes no sense to bog down the weakest link.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:13 pm 
Java Junkie
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JAB Creations wrote:
I Partitioning your hard drive doesn't give you better performance, the OS is still using the same physical hard drive!


Actually, if you create a partition on the outside edge of the platter and fix the OS there, it does result in better performance.

Quote:
It makes no sense to encode video and run your OS off the same physical hard drive in example, you're better off using a separate drive.


That is only true if you're multitasking extensively while encoding. With 4GB of RAM in most systems these days, the OS doesn't need to hit the pagefile or the HDD in general when it is concentrating on a single task. Thus, the only thing using the HDD is the encoding application.

Quote:
Since hard drives are the slowest component in a system when it comes to waiting to use something it makes no sense to bog down the weakest link.


That is true but is a very general comment that doesn't take into account the specifics that you mentioned above.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:56 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:03 am
Posts: 28
BEST performance is leaving the OS on a dedicated hard drive. I do a lot of heavy multitasking.

Page file? I have the page file disabled as it causes lag and we no longer anguish at 16KB of RAM.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:03 pm 
Java Junkie
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JAB Creations wrote:
BEST performance is leaving the OS on a dedicated hard drive. I do a lot of heavy multitasking.


In 1999, you were correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:33 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:03 am
Posts: 28
Jipstyle wrote:
In 1999, you were correct.


If that's what you want to think go for it! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:30 pm 
8086
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Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:54 pm
Posts: 35
This is clearly an issue we should be spending all this time on.

In Maximum PC, of all places - a mag that routinely throws four to six drives in their Dream Machine every year (except for the budget Crap Machines from last year).

But hey - who knows better than Jipstyle?

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:09 pm 
Willamette
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Damn Jypstyle has a fan club :lol: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Booting from large drives
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:18 pm 
Java Junkie
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tugboat_2 wrote:
Damn Jypstyle has a fan club :lol: 8)


I know. I really am worthy of cyberstalking.

No .. really.

:lol:


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