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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:16 am 
SON OF A GUN
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Torp... bottom line is that while under your parents roof, your right to privacy is limited if not non-existent. I would not be against taking the doors off the kids bedrooms if I felt it necessary.

While I think a keylogger is not the way to go about it. I full believe that the internet needs to be monitors and restricted to kids, even though their teens if necessary. I know that mine probably should have been restricted a little more. There is a certain amount of discovering driven by curiosity that needs to happen. However there is just some stuff that need not be made accessible. Out of the box, kids can't be trusted to do the right thing because they might not know what they are doing is truly wrong.

The kids need to know they will be supervised and that there are consequences to their actions.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:17 am 
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Let's also remember that 'teenagers' refers to people between the ages of 13 (child) and 19 (voting adult capable of owning firearms, voting and purchasing alcohol (in some places)). Obviously, the restriction of freedom lessens considerably as the teen grows up.

I wouldn't want my thirteen yr old having unfettered access to porn or instructions on making IEDs ... but my nineteen year old is welcome to watch as much porn as he or she likes .. behind closed doors, with headphones, and appropriate cleaning afterward. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:40 pm 
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STorpedo wrote:
@Quakindude; that was a very informative post. I can tell you honestly that I've came across little first-hand-experience records like that in some time, and it was fairly informative.

If possible, I'd like to remark upon a few things I read (I'm aware that that sounds self-important; think what you will); the need to find a simple and understandable explanation for why such a terrible thing happened to your brother-in-law is very understandable, but I myself know at least one other person whose parents have let him do whatever he wanted, and he's grown up as a relatively calm and well-rounded chemistry teacher. I'm sure that you yourself know of many people whose parenting was existent only on paper, and who managed to avoid pitfalls due to their own intellect. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, I'm afraid. An accumulation of negative circumstances seem to be a far more likely cause for your brother-in-law's mistakes. Although I admit, the parenting situation you've described is far from ideal, fail-safes are a necessity at such a turbulent time as adolescence.

I do not see you mentioning this, but the strongest rules are backed up by strong arugmentation, something I've hoped you've supplied, for, I'll admit, I have not fully analyzed the possible reprecussions of a fairly disciplined upbringing on a child, something that certainly appears to exist in your children's case, but intelligence and objectivity are nearly always superior to principles. I mean no disrespect, but I hope that you have not raised two self-righteous people who had to adhere to a cast-iron code of conduct since their adolescent years, who were consistently validated by their parents for following it, arguably the two most important figures in their life for at least 10 years, who carry over this self-validation and code to their adult life, where things are rather grey and fickle.


Without principles, there are no rules. Without rules governing society as a whole, we would still be beating the shit out of each other with spears and arrows, only the strong would rule and the "rules" would be based on the rulers personal whims. Thank God we've come a long ways from that here in the United States and other civilized countries. While not ideal, I'd rather live in our society than the Congo.

My children were allowed to make their cases in most situations. As long as they did so with respect, they were treated with respect. If they failed to show respect, they were treated like little kids who just didn't know better. Both of my kids learned very early on that if they were going to lie to us, they better get away with it because the punishment really sucked. Moving rocks from one pile to another, being the cleaning kid for the old couple down the street, for free....they were NOT allowed to be paid for it, or cutting grass for older folks....again, no pay...and loss of their bedroom door was a given when they lied. If they will lie about where they were, then how can I trust them to be behind a closed door in my house? They were allowed a shower curtain for when they were changing clothes, then the curtain was taken down and put away.

If they were going to argue a point with us, like somewhere they wanted to go unsupervised, they had best think long and hard about it and convince us of a few things:

1. Time, location and who and what activities.
2. When they would return.
3. How they were getting there and back.
4. Costs involved.
5. The type of activities they could anticipate being involved in or getting away from.
6. Last, but not least, check in times via cell phone. This one was not optional nor open for discussion.

Items one through five could be discussed, bartered for, an extra 30 minutes out to cut the grass the next morning, massaged or even allowed at all. My kids, once they had displayed enough maturity, ethics and respect, could get to do an awful lot of things as teens that others wouldn't. But at the same time, if I ever caught them lying or not quite telling the whole truth, it wouldn't be anything for me to walk into the middle of their little lake party that was supposed to have at least one adult supervising and zero drugs or alcohol, yet DID have an adult supervising the consumption of alcohol, and for me to take my kid home right then and there and call the cops on the kids parents that allowed it. Once my daughter turned 18, she was allowed to damned near come and go as she pleased because by then, she had developed a healthy respect for strong ethics, morals and beliefs. It is NOT ok as a parent to provide 16-20 year olds with alcohol. But you'd be amazed how many times parents did just that. Now, in College, my daughter is having a great time getting drunk at all the parties college kids like to go to. But you WILL NOT hear of her driving her car home and you can be sure as hell she has a pre-planned exit plan that gets her home safely.

You see, in my house, we never minded explaining to our kids why we felt the way we did about anything. We were very open and honest with them. "Well son, I know you want to go to the overnight fishing party, but two weeks ago you told me you were going to a certain place and it turned out you weren't there. So until you've refilled my 'trust bank', tough shit buddy."

If we ever told our kids, "NO, you can't do that and I'll explain it to you later", then our kids had best wait till later to find out why we decided that way. You can express your disappointment all you want, but if my wife asks you a question and you snap at her or get a sudden case of the dumb ass and get smart with her because you're pissed off, dad was going to stop the car and immediately address that situation with you. And you weren't going to win because at that point, it's a one sided conversation. Me to you. I'm teaching, you are shutting your face and learning.

Once, my then 16 year-old daughter came walking up the sidewalk 45 minutes late, with all of her friends. I was waiting in my customary spot, on the front porch. I asked, "Ryan, is there a good reason you're 45 minutes late and your phone has been busy all night?" She said, "Chill out dad. I was with my friends. I'll tell you about it tomorrow." You could just tell her friends were SO impressed with how she spoke to me. They were even more impressed when I walked up to her and put my finger in her face and said, "Don't say another word or move from THIS spot. I'll get back to you." I then started asking her friends questions. The second kid lied to me, I already knew where they had been of course....that's what a PARENT does is make sure their kids are safe in what they're doing.....and I told that kid not to show her face near my daughter again period. Or I'd let the MP's know she brought the weed. Thing is, you only have to do this a few times and then your kids are terrified of where you'll show up. So they tend not to put themselves into those places. And the one time I got "that feeling" again from my daughter about where she would be, my methods saved her from being raped and it also demonstrated to her just how angry her father could get. The guy lived of course, but he did need a week in the hospital before the police could put him in jail. Oh yeah....what did my daughter get when I came back to her? A nice little slap on the cheek for lying to me and treating me like she was the parent and then a month of cleaning up the wounded warriors barracks bathrooms....with my help and supervision of course.

My kids could change my mind in many circumstances as long as they argued intelligently, like someone who had done their research, and respectfully.

Kids think they know everything and what they don't know, they'll just pick up along the way. I've made sure that learning didn't kill them, or cause them to be raped, and in the end, after that initial year of rebellion, we developed a very good way of talking to each other. I'd let them do damned near anything they wanted from belly rings at 16 to tattoo's (decent, non-fadish small ones) at 17. They're smart our young kids and as long as I'm not being lied to, or lied to too largely, am informed and know who they are with, things got a lot easier for them. But basic home chores and school work ALWAYS came first, period. They never did win that disagreement. :lol:

I still say the best keylogger is an involved parent. But sometimes, even parents need a bit of help.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:24 am 
SON OF A GUN
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Quake, your kids are bloody lucky, and I hope they realize it.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:07 pm 
Little Foot
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STorpedo wrote:
Jipstyle wrote:
Fuck that ridiculous post right in its gaping ass.

A teenager living at home and using his parents' money / PC to access the internet has no legal or ethical right to privacy whatsoever.


I'm charmed, you kiss your mother with that mouth? (And, no, you don't kiss mine, thank you very much) Regardless, never said they did (although your definiton of glorified slavery doesn't seem to be wholly appropriate either), in order for a person to grow up in a relatively sane fashion while relying on somebody else for sustenance, they have to have certain privacy and freedom in their life, otherwise, like I said, it's glorified slavery.


Christ, I third or 4th or whatever it's at now the nomination to fuck that post in it's gaping ass. Torp, besides the fact it's idiotic to do to begin with in situations like this, you've got an awful lot of nerve to start preaching about crap like this when you have NO IDEA of the circumstances that may have led to it. You want to talk about the physcological effects on these "glorified slaves" I'm sure there are plenty of other non-tech forums to do that at.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:23 pm 
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bogara007 wrote:
Christ, I third or 4th or whatever it's at now the nomination to fuck that post in it's gaping ass. Torp, besides the fact it's idiotic to do to begin with in situations like this, you've got an awful lot of nerve to start preaching about crap like this when you have NO IDEA of the circumstances that may have led to it. You want to talk about the physcological effects on these "glorified slaves" I'm sure there are plenty of other non-tech forums to do that at.


Christ indeed. I wish people would read the extent of my arguments before taking things at face value and reacting impulsively like an animal. I can assume certain things based on the limited information availible to me, and I am merely advising the OP to think well before proceeding with this plan. If the circumstances I described do not fit those of the OP's, or he/she has thought long and hard about the ramifications, then he/she may simply disregard what I wrote. I do not understand what is so offensive about my post-my intention was to help. I have explained in a later post how teenagers are, in many ways, and on many occasions, essentialy glorified slaves, and how that's not a horrendous thing either, but just the default position, which may, or may not be, preferential in certain circumstances. In relation to the fact that I continued to talk about this; I was replied to, and so, explained my argument in further detail, I do not have some inherent need to continuously go off topic. Ask and ye shall recieve.

(And what kind of imagery is that supposed to convey, 'fuck that post in it's gaping ass', what are you, playing Halo? Should I expect being called a f*g next?)


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:01 pm 
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@Quakindude, once again, fairly informative post. Not as much as the first one, but interesting nonetheless. I feel the urge to mention that, yes, principles are superior to anarchy, but principles are a sign of pride or omniscience, since the definition of a principle is that of a rule that will cover all possible cases life can throw at you, and that no contradictory to the premise of the principle information will ever surface. Since we can all agree that we are not omniscient or infallible, the prudent thing to do is to train pragmatism, unbiased judgement and objectivity, if given the option to conduct succesfully, rather than principles.

I have to be honest with you, however, the descriptions of your children's upbringing and the fact that they are in the military now seem complimentary in some fashion. Like I was mentioning before, I hope you've raised two objective people, just and fair, rather than two close-minded shells with a water-tight code of conduct, and a deep-seated requirement for power (judging from the 'me teaching, you shutting your face and learning' segment you ran a very tight ship), something the army can provide them with. I am not trying to pick a fight, but I do want to find out your thoughts on the matter, two out of two kids in the military sounds a bit too much of a coincidence.


Last edited by STorpedo on Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:00 am 
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@STorpedo Maybe you should re-read your condescending and arrogant posts. Then you may get some insight on the responses you've received to this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:45 am 
Little Foot
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STorpedo wrote:
bogara007 wrote:


Christ indeed. I wish people would read the extent of my arguments before taking things at face value and reacting impulsively like an animal. I can assume certain things based on the limited information availible to me, and I am merely advising the OP to think well before proceeding with this plan. If the circumstances I described do not fit those of the OP's, or he/she has thought long and hard about the ramifications, then he/she may simply disregard what I wrote. I do not understand what is so offensive about my post-my intention was to help. I have explained in a later post how teenagers are, in many ways, and on many occasions, essentialy glorified slaves, and how that's not a horrendous thing either, but just the default position, which may, or may not be, preferential in certain circumstances. In relation to the fact that I continued to talk about this; I was replied to, and so, explained my argument in further detail, I do not have some inherent need to continuously go off topic. Ask and ye shall recieve.

(And what kind of imagery is that supposed to convey, 'fuck that post in it's gaping ass', what are you, playing Halo? Should I expect being called a f*g next?)


GAH!!! This is a TECH forum! A TECH forum dude! This isn't where you spew out your personal philosophy on how to raise teenagers! People get so exasperated when they see this shit in a TECH forum that steam comes out of their ears and they cuss their brains out! Your thoughts on this issue have no place in this thread! Open a new thread in the appropiate folder and talk all day about the effects of raising your teenager as a vitural slave or whatever you were saying. Don't hijack the thread and get all oprah-y when we're talking about an app and how to use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:58 pm 
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@LondoJowo; I am sorry if you thought any of my posts were self-righteous or otherwise preach-y in nature. I was simply submitting my argument, and tried to defend it objectively and without passion. The only post I can honestly say was assertive was my first one, in which I used a forward tone to convey what I felt to be the gravity of the issue discussed. Perhaps I did not put enough 'imo's, 'if you ask me's, and 'I think's.
@bogara007; 'Tis true. There were two reasons for indulging in this potential diversion, one: I thought that hackman2007 answered the OPs question fairly well by that point. Two: I would not feel right not saying anything. Call it what you will, if I think I can aid another person, I try my best not to care about the ramifications (assuming they don't cause another person harm, of course).


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:51 am 
SON OF A GUN
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bogara007 wrote:
GAH!!! This is a TECH forum! A TECH forum dude! This isn't where you spew out your personal philosophy on how to raise teenagers! People get so exasperated when they see this shit in a TECH forum that steam comes out of their ears and they cuss their brains out! Your thoughts on this issue have no place in this thread! Open a new thread in the appropiate folder and talk all day about the effects of raising your teenager as a vitural slave or whatever you were saying. Don't hijack the thread and get all oprah-y when we're talking about an app and how to use it.
>_<

You poor poor misguided soul. There is always a lot more to it than that. Ethics, responsibility and integrity come into play way more than you think. http://www.acm.org/about/code-of-ethics/#sect1

Point being there are some very important security, privacy, and other concerns. Typically keylogger software is NOT safe and should not be trusted. The author could be calling anything home. It is irresponsible to put your child in that situation where that information can be transmitted out of your home, putting your child / teenager at serious risk.

Further more it is important that the OP and anybody who reads this thread understands all of the issues involved with using something of that nature. It isn't as clear cut as you think. I could tell somebody how to do any number of things but it isn't in their best interests nor is in responsible for me to do so.

Virtual slave? Hardly. As Jip has said... while your child is living under your roof, they have zero rights to anything. Sure, they should be allowed some privacy... but when it comes to the computer, with all of the risks and potential dangers I really feel that there is zero reason for them to have anything close to free reign.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Arguments over parenting aside, I am mildly interested in this topic. I have a friend who insists on sticking with a cheating scumbag of a "man" who uses the fact that he grew up without a father to get anything that is female into bed. She knows he cheated on her multiple times previously. She came to me asking if I could pull the passwords out of saved files in Internet Explorer for certain accounts which would reveal incriminating activity. He's smart enough to not save the passwords for said accounts in the browser, however.

I never broached the subject of keyloggers with her, given that she'd seen hard evidence once. However, given that he's dumb as a rock when it comes to computers, are there any reputable vendors of software-based solutions (laptop again)?

Yes, I know the most likely tendency (especially given the level of "tough love" and "hardass" in this thread/forum) is probably "she's a dumb skank who deserves what she's getting" but please, spare me the judgement and just answer the question.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Unless the PC belongs solely to her, what she is asking is illegal.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:55 am 
SON OF A GUN
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If she knows he is a scum bag?

Honestly, I am sure she is nice... but sometimes I really think women get what they ask for with this and after a time I can't feel sorry for them...


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:24 am 
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CrashTECH wrote:
If she knows he is a scum bag?


1. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and the computer in question belongs to the 'scum bag', then, as Jipstyle says, putting a key logger on the computer is illegal.
2. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and the computer in question is a gift from her to the 'scum bag', then the above still applies.
3. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and the computer belongs to her, then you need to see what the laws of the area they live in have to say on the subject.
4. If the 'scum bag' is not of legal age and is living on his own or outside of his parents or someone that has custody, it doesn't matter who the computer belongs to, the local laws apply.
5. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and living at home, then who the computer belongs to and local laws need to be reviewed.
6. I could go on but I hope you might be getting this now. It doesn't matter if he is a scum bag'. The law does matter.
7. Now can we take the social part of this thread to the appropriate area?


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:35 am 
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This thread is half-zombie .. it almost dies and then lurches back to life, dropping rotting chunks of fleshy advice as it stumbles forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:53 am 
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Can I request a lock if this continues to be a social thread? Or maybe a polite (or not so polite) PM to the 'social engineers' to take it somewhere else?


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:26 am 
Java Junkie
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You can request anything you like, bro!

I would like to formally request a lapdance from JWow. Bring me the teh b00bies!


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:36 pm 
SON OF A GUN
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dedgar wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
If she knows he is a scum bag?


1. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and the computer in question belongs to the 'scum bag', then, as Jipstyle says, putting a key logger on the computer is illegal.
2. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and the computer in question is a gift from her to the 'scum bag', then the above still applies.
3. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and the computer belongs to her, then you need to see what the laws of the area they live in have to say on the subject.
4. If the 'scum bag' is not of legal age and is living on his own or outside of his parents or someone that has custody, it doesn't matter who the computer belongs to, the local laws apply.
5. If the 'scum bag' is of legal age and living at home, then who the computer belongs to and local laws need to be reviewed.
6. I could go on but I hope you might be getting this now. It doesn't matter if he is a scum bag'. The law does matter.
7. Now can we take the social part of this thread to the appropriate area?


I wasn't questioning the legality of it. I was questioning why she was still with the dude if she knew he was a scum bag.


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 Post subject: Re: Keylogger Recommendation
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
This thread is half-zombie .. it almost dies and then lurches back to life, dropping rotting chunks of fleshy advice as it stumbles forward.


It's shake and bake and I helped!!


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