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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:26 am 
Willamette
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OK, yeah, I agree. We're fighting a battle that's not really worth fighting. I think all languages have their place, and while we have our favorites, no language can be "better" than the other (espeically with the latest iteration of languages from MS in VS.NET 2010).

Yes, C++ is older than VB, but when VB came out for Windows, it was like a new revolution in how Windows programs were designed and written, plus it gave people an easier way to construct programs rather than using pure C++ code to develop Windows apps. You could visually create them, and then write the code to make the programs do something...

In the end, I don't see VB going away anytime soon (as others have hinted at) I think partially because VB is Microsoft's baby, and it still has a practical purpose in the computing world. Even if it's isn't the "top notch" language, it still serves a purpose as being an entry level or prototyping language that it is.

The end result is what matters most... not how it was written. The beauty of the .net framework is that you can collaborate projects and programs written in different languages can "talk to eachother" better, not that haven't been able to do that before, but the .NET just makes it better (in my opinion).


SO.... to whomever started this thread: Learn whatever language you want. I'm sure the time you invest won't be wasted. I say this because everytime you learn a new language, there are new techniques and methods you learn (most of which could be carried over from one language to the next). So, whether you pick VB, C#, C++, PHP or any oher language, I think you'll do just fine. From what it sounds like, this is just a learning experience for you... It doesn't sound like it's at a professional level yet, so you seem to still be in the "learning" stage. I personally learned C++ first, then moved to VB, but some people do it the other way around. Whatever way YOU feel comfortable with is the best route. Because learning any language will teach you key skills, like writing structured code, choosing the correct algorythms for the right problem, etc etc. Then after that, to move to a new language is mainly just learning a new style of syntax for that specific language (sort of like learning a new spoken language---once you've learned one new language, generally learning additional spoken languages goes a bit easier thereafter because you know how to approach them and deal with them).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:41 am 
SON OF A GUN
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I did some semi-serious development work in PHP about 2 years ago with a team of two others. We probably have 12k lines of code that we wrote over a few months. It is my opinion that PHP is a garbage language and I found the development tools to be lacking.

I am working on a VB.NET application right now, and it is making me want to slash my wrists :(

I would take Java over this right now... lol

:)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:52 am 
Willamette
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Yes, I do agree that PHP is a somehwat garbage language in that it's messy and not as powerful as Java or some of the others, but then again, it's merely a scripting language... you can't write true apps as you can with Java. The beauty of Java is that as long as you have JRE for your environment/OS, then you can run your apps.

I'm just using PHP for now because that's all that our web server will support (we don't have ASP support as of right now, and i don't think we'll be getting it anytime soon -- plus it's a LInux server so I don't know if we *can* use true ASP support on LInux--I'm not entirely familiar with ASP programming and ASP configurations right now--I've played with it a bit but not too much.)

Ideally, I'd like to move to Java because it is compatible with more systems, but again, I don't think our server will support it right now.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:03 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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CrashTECH wrote:
It is my opinion that PHP is a garbage language and I found the development tools to be lacking.



That's because it is garbage. Why are they even bothering promoting it as a serious language if it lacks serious development tools?

RoR had, at the very least, a command line interface you could interact with. You could test your objects, insert data into ActiveRecord and all that from a convenient CLI. It also had WEBrick for a web server.

PHP had NONE of that. VB.NET's okay but I'm not a big fan of its verbosity.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:18 pm 
Willamette
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Yes, it is a pain that in order to really write PHP code (unless you invested in an aftermarket suite of tools) you had to do a lot of work and that an IDE was more ideal.

I'm thinking of moving to Java at this point for my future projects, although I'll still have to do PHP for the current project's I've agreed to do (which happens to be the system that works with PHP, and apparently in its current state cannot support Java applications/applets).

I know ASP would be another good alternative. My only problem with Java is that the end-user needs to have the Java run-time environment on their system, which can be a pain, especially for those who are not really technically inclined (yes, the installation of the JRE is pretty straightfoward, but some may not even know what do if they don't have it installed). Plus, I'm not entirely thrilled with Sun at this point, but at least with Java I can create applications and applets.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:39 pm 
Northwood
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cbasset, have you tried or taken a look at LISP?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:41 pm 
Willamette
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Not really. I thought LISP was sort of dead. From what I know, it was popular way back when, when microcomputers were first starting out...

I did a quick Google search, and to me, if it is possible, it seams rather difficult to pick up as a language (from what I saw).


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:50 pm 
SON OF A GUN
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There is only one person here that LIKES LISP, and that is Gadget. He is a masochist. LISP is evil.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:22 pm 
Willamette
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that's the impression I got after looking at LISP. I mean, it's almost as bad as when I took ASSEMBLER for the IBM Mainframe (which at the time we were learning on the IBM 360/370 using the MVS system).

At least with Assembler, you could get some idea of what the program was supposed to do just by looking at the source code. At least with the version we were using, you had commands like XPRNT, XDUMP, DUMP, etc. All of which you could make out after thinking about the names for a while (if you hadn't seen Assembler code before)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:07 pm 
Northwood
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CrashTECH wrote:
There is only one person here that LIKES LISP, and that is Gadget. He is a masochist. LISP is evil.


I have grown to love the LISP syntax.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:48 am 
SON OF A GUN
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You are dead to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:08 am 
Northwood
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CrashTECH wrote:
You are dead to me.


Don't get me wrong, emacs and vi and all the other things like that are as annoying as all get out but if you have an ide and can run around with a fair knowledge of what you're doing, LISP (or rather, its syntax) is fun. More of a hobby than anything else though


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:56 pm 
Willamette
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How the hell could you like LISP. From the examples I saw, I'd rather write assembler code than do that! At least, with assembler, I can tell what the program is doing (or get an idea of what it's supposed to do).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:38 am 
SON OF A GUN
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LISP is powerful, but I don't like it. It is ugly to work with (IMO).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:10 pm 
Northwood
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CrashTECH wrote:
LISP is powerful, but I don't like it. It is ugly to work with (IMO).


If you do it from command line, yes it is ugly. Very ugly.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:44 am 
SON OF A GUN
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Using an IDE makes it less ugly???

No way bro. Lisp is ugly. Parenthesis hell!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:36 am 
8086
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CrashTECH wrote:
VB.NET and C# are NOT exactly the same. Are you dense?

There are lots of differences between them, and LOC is a pretty irrelevant measure of anything anymore, especially since there is LOTS of generated code in .NET. Less code does not always mean it will run faster.

C++ managed is hardly its own language.

VB.NET is similar to VB6 but under the hood too much is different.

I'd bet a months pay that you can't make a bubble sort better than a quick sort by using a better compiler. :? Let me know when you need my paypal address for, I'll be a nice guy and accept $5k instead of what my full salary would be :)

@minitech, where on earth did you get the idea that .NET forces OOP? It certainly encourages it, but doesn't require it. You can definitely do procedural programming without issues.

How exactly is VB6 easier than VB.NET? (hint: Neither one is any easier or harder).
On the contrary, they are identical. Give me any snippet of C# code and I will translate it directly to VB.NET. Both programs will have thes ame number of lines and each keyword will have a direct single-keyword equivalent. That's what I meant earlier, btw.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:01 am 
8086
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Quote:
On the contrary, they are identical. Give me any snippet of C# code and I will translate it directly to VB.NET. Both programs will have thes ame number of lines and each keyword will have a direct single-keyword equivalent. That's what I meant earlier, btw.

This is not exactly true. The capabilities of .NET are defined by the CLR. All compilers built on top of the CLR offer some subset of CLR functionality...i.e. not all CLR capabilties are available to all .NET languages because of compiler restrictions. For example, until .NET 4.0 came out this year, C# did not allow optional parameters while VB.NET did. It's true that these differences are few and far between, but they do exist.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:06 am 
8086
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TF_Titan wrote:
Quote:
On the contrary, they are identical. Give me any snippet of C# code and I will translate it directly to VB.NET. Both programs will have thes ame number of lines and each keyword will have a direct single-keyword equivalent. That's what I meant earlier, btw.

This is not exactly true. The capabilities of .NET are defined by the CLR. All compilers built on top of the CLR offer some subset of CLR functionality...i.e. not all CLR capabilties are available to all .NET languages because of compiler restrictions. For example, until .NET 4.0 came out this year, C# did not allow optional parameters while VB.NET did. It's true that these differences are few and far between, but they do exist.
And now it does. Plus, Optional arguments aren't very useful, same as with On Error XXX statements.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:50 pm 
Northwood
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CrashTECH wrote:
Using an IDE makes it less ugly???

No way bro. Lisp is ugly. Parenthesis hell!


Parenthesis heaven! I love the syntax. That's not to say I don't like C++ or any of the "Clean languages," though... I do, honestly, like them. I just think that LISP is fun xD


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