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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:00 pm 
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Spartacus wrote:
usually more then 10 though. 10 is pretty darned low. I mean, I do know a couple people who can code scary fast, but it still takes for ever. Last I checked, the biggest project that I was a part of was about 25,000 lines of code.


including or excluding reusable libraries?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:10 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
and yes i know about how much work coding is my job is to edit and prep a print magazine, manage and code the website (php/mysql) and be the IT guy. I'm looking at a page right now with over 300 LOC right now. I'm also on call 24/7.


:lol:

You think that means you know about coding? PHP and MySQL are NOT coding. Have you ever developed an actual algorithm? Any idea how to determine efficiency? Demonstrate completeness? No.

You sound like a garage mechanic who is proud he can change the oil in his Porsche complaining that he could design and build a better engine than the boys in Germany ... if you only had the time.

You're so clueless, you haven't any idea how far off the mark you are.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
nekollx wrote:
and yes i know about how much work coding is my job is to edit and prep a print magazine, manage and code the website (php/mysql) and be the IT guy. I'm looking at a page right now with over 300 LOC right now. I'm also on call 24/7.


:lol:

You think that means you know about coding? PHP and MySQL are NOT coding. Have you ever developed an actual algorithm? Any idea how to determine efficiency? Demonstrate completeness? No.

You sound like a garage mechanic who is proud he can change the oil in his Porsche complaining that he could design and build a better engine than the boys in Germany ... if you only had the time.

You're so clueless, you haven't any idea how far off the mark you are.


that's what i do for a living, if you read the actual thread you would know i work in c#.net and Dark Basic. And while not mentioned here i'll add I also cut my teeth on BASIC, and C++

so as a review
C++
C#.net
Basic
Dark Basic
PHP
MySQL

and a bit of Flash and javascript. I think i can safly say i know about coding.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:22 pm 
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US_Ranger wrote:
Wow, quite the shitstorm in here.

Question for those that actually know:

How many developers, coders, writers, everything elsers work on a decent budget game? I saw someone say 10 full time developers higher up. How many part time people working? Maybe someone can give a run down of how it ACTUALLY works so people like me, and I'm assuming a few others here, can have a grasp on the reality of what it takes to produce a game. I'm not trying to get in the way of the argument here but I'm a little ignorant on the subject.


Excellent question, Ranger. The answer is, annoyingly, 'it depends'.

Are we talking about the development of a complete game, from the engine up? Valve is an excellent company, imo, and they make great games. You can see their 'team listing' here

At the very least, you need a small team of high-quality programers. Say ... half-a-dozen to a dozen hard-core system-level programmers. These are the guys who will design and write the really hard stuff: AI, physics, graphics engine, etc..

On top of that, you'll need another team of UI guys: they'll develop the interface used by the gamer. Ranging from designing the HUD, buttons and KB control, menus when not in-game for settings and network config, etc..

You'll need a team of graphic designers. Not to be confused with the graphics engine mentioned earlier, these guys will create the actual graphics for characters, items and the game world.

A small team of writers to create and shape the game. Ranging from scripting the game, character interactions and the storyline to actually mapping out the story arcs, you'll need 2 - 4 people here depending on the size of the game.

A team of network gurus, maybe 3 or 4, if the game will have a multiplayer or online component. Triple this figure if you're creating a MMORG-style game.

For every dev, you'll want at least one dedicated QA/QC person. These are not play testers but skilled and trained devs working on testing and performance analysis. A 2:1 ratio is better.

Some sound guys, both for the physics aspect of sound propagation and to create in-game music and sound-effects. These are two disparate skill sets, of course.

Have I missed anything, Crash? This is just the 'creation of the game' list and ignores marketing, legal, etc..


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:23 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
Jipstyle wrote:
nekollx wrote:
and yes i know about how much work coding is my job is to edit and prep a print magazine, manage and code the website (php/mysql) and be the IT guy. I'm looking at a page right now with over 300 LOC right now. I'm also on call 24/7.


:lol:

You think that means you know about coding? PHP and MySQL are NOT coding. Have you ever developed an actual algorithm? Any idea how to determine efficiency? Demonstrate completeness? No.

You sound like a garage mechanic who is proud he can change the oil in his Porsche complaining that he could design and build a better engine than the boys in Germany ... if you only had the time.

You're so clueless, you haven't any idea how far off the mark you are.


that's what i do for a living, if you read the actual thread you would know i work in c#.net and Dark Basic. And while not mentioned here i'll add I also cut my teeth on BASIC, and C++

so as a review
C++
C#.net
Basic
Dark Basic
PHP
MySQL

and a bit of Flash and javascript. I think i can safly say i know about coding.


The fact that you include not one but two instance of BASIC pretty much proves you're talking out of your ass.

If you can provide a single paragraph summary of the use of Boost vs. te STL, without hitting Google, you might be allowed to keep C++ on the list. Go. Don't cheat.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:28 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
US_Ranger wrote:
Wow, quite the shitstorm in here.

Question for those that actually know:

How many developers, coders, writers, everything elsers work on a decent budget game? I saw someone say 10 full time developers higher up. How many part time people working? Maybe someone can give a run down of how it ACTUALLY works so people like me, and I'm assuming a few others here, can have a grasp on the reality of what it takes to produce a game. I'm not trying to get in the way of the argument here but I'm a little ignorant on the subject.


Excellent question, Ranger. The answer is, annoyingly, 'it depends'.

Are we talking about the development of a complete game, from the engine up? Valve is an excellent company, imo, and they make great games. You can see their 'team listing' here

At the very least, you need a small team of high-quality programers. Say ... half-a-dozen to a dozen hard-core system-level programmers. These are the guys who will design and write the really hard stuff: AI, physics, graphics engine, etc..

On top of that, you'll need another team of UI guys: they'll develop the interface used by the gamer. Ranging from designing the HUD, buttons and KB control, menus when not in-game for settings and network config, etc..

You'll need a team of graphic designers. Not to be confused with the graphics engine mentioned earlier, these guys will create the actual graphics for characters, items and the game world.

A small team of writers to create and shape the game. Ranging from scripting the game, character interactions and the storyline to actually mapping out the story arcs, you'll need 2 - 4 people here depending on the size of the game.

A team of network gurus, maybe 3 or 4, if the game will have a multiplayer or online component. Triple this figure if you're creating a MMORG-style game.

For every dev, you'll want at least one dedicated QA/QC person. These are not play testers but skilled and trained devs working on testing and performance analysis. A 2:1 ratio is better.

Some sound guys, both for the physics aspect of sound propagation and to create in-game music and sound-effects. These are two disparate skill sets, of course.

Have I missed anything, Crash? This is just the 'creation of the game' list and ignores marketing, legal, etc..


well usually theirs someone who does pre visuals, story boards, mock ups.
And if it's say a game like Final Fantasy you have one team for the in game models (and cinimatics) and another for those drool inducing cgi eye fests...

But with anything something they just throw all the team together and produce crap...which is my entire issue. Why are "good games" the exception when the hobbist can out do the crap on a home pc? Why is the standard so freeking low.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
nekollx wrote:
Jipstyle wrote:
nekollx wrote:
and yes i know about how much work coding is my job is to edit and prep a print magazine, manage and code the website (php/mysql) and be the IT guy. I'm looking at a page right now with over 300 LOC right now. I'm also on call 24/7.


:lol:

You think that means you know about coding? PHP and MySQL are NOT coding. Have you ever developed an actual algorithm? Any idea how to determine efficiency? Demonstrate completeness? No.

You sound like a garage mechanic who is proud he can change the oil in his Porsche complaining that he could design and build a better engine than the boys in Germany ... if you only had the time.

You're so clueless, you haven't any idea how far off the mark you are.


that's what i do for a living, if you read the actual thread you would know i work in c#.net and Dark Basic. And while not mentioned here i'll add I also cut my teeth on BASIC, and C++

so as a review
C++
C#.net
Basic
Dark Basic
PHP
MySQL

and a bit of Flash and javascript. I think i can safly say i know about coding.


The fact that you include not one but two instance of BASIC pretty much proves you're talking out of your ass.

If you can provide a single paragraph summary of the use of Boost vs. te STL, without hitting Google, you might be allowed to keep C++ on the list. Go. Don't cheat.


You are aware there is a difference between BASIC and Dark Basic just as C#.net and C++ are different, right?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Yes, I'm aware. Nice side-stepping of the question, BTw.

Are you aware that Dark BASIC is *not* an object-oriented language? Just because it is used to describe graphic objects does NOT make it OOP. It is a purely procedural language .. just like BASIC.

It is also a language for naive beginners.

Neither is a language used by professional software developers. They are for hobbyists.

Given that you didn't answer my question, you're obviously not a competent C++ developer either. The answer would have leapt to your fingers and you'd have been insulted that I asked. You also would have a strong opinion, one way or the other, and would not have hesitated to offer it.

Look .. you're a rookie. You don't know what is involved and you're only making yourself look igorant and arrogant by assuming you have any competency in the field whatsoever.

Keep changing your oil and leave the engineering to those of us with the training. The years we spent studying mathematics were actually necessary to do what we do and you can't side-step them by picking up a toy language.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:42 pm 
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wow...if the sucking posts one makes is any reflection of what may be produced...

..I guess I'll just leave it at that :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:45 pm 
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I've been a part of a pretty big game back in 1997 (with it's offspring still alive and kicking) and then a pretty low-key game made in angst that was on the $9 rack at Circuit City about a week after being released (still pretty fun IMO).

You need a good team and about 2 years to hash out a basic game from the ground up. An idea on a napkin is a start, and you can use current games to get a demo out...an idea you need further investing on. If they like it, they take it and fit it to market predictions. If it's a game about making teddy bears, they may change it to shooting teddy bears point blank in the face and take over it's artistic intent it started as. They want it as their own.

It's either that or start a new empire. If you do that then you loose a lot of resources in developing the game. You're on your own and it's all on you [and your team] to fund and develop the game. It was tough back then, and can imagine the scene has only upped the ante in the cut-throat business that is the gaming industry. Back then no one would play ball with a start-up but one video card company I just happened to have a foot in the door at. They practically opened the door to "Glide" because they found it a good opportunity to get a title, any title, on their list of supported games. I can't imagine the fight over OpenCL and DX11 as an empire founder today. Not that it can't be done, but it'd take massive resources to get something out.
-------------------------
What is still enjoyable is making games out of current games. That's what TFC was basically, and evolved into TF2 we know today. It's not Halflife or Quake, it's a totally different game. If you can map well, you eventually find that you can take that same offspring into another direction entirely. How many games have been made off HL1? I can count 6 popular ones, and I'm sure there's others. They were all based off Quake's engine to boot.

So it's possible if you're creative enough. But it won't be ground up, it'll be an adaptation. There's NO way one person can build and engine, then a game, then get it pushed out, let alone support it on practically a daily basis. So that's why I think ya gotta sell your rights to it and basically let them take it in whatever direction it goes. Or, get a team together and push it on your own.

That starts in places like this. If your game is worth a damn, give it to us and let us pick it apart. It's not ridicule, it's free evolution. That's the new business model for software. You HAVE to give it away to make it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
Yes, I'm aware. Nice side-stepping of the question, BTw.

Are you aware that Dark BASIC is *not* an object-oriented language? Just because it is used to describe graphic objects does NOT make it OOP. It is a purely procedural language .. just like BASIC.

It is also a language for naive beginners.

Neither is a language used by professional software developers. They are for hobbyists.

Given that you didn't answer my question, you're obviously not a competent C++ developer either. The answer would have leapt to your fingers and you'd have been insulted that I asked. You also would have a strong opinion, one way or the other, and would not have hesitated to offer it.

Look .. you're a rookie. You don't know what is involved and you're only making yourself look igorant and arrogant by assuming you have any competency in the field whatsoever.

Keep changing your oil and leave the engineering to those of us with the training. The years we spent studying mathematics were actually necessary to do what we do and you can't side-step them by picking up a toy language.


and your missing the point i've been trying to make but i'm not going to argue over what is a real or fake language, what is oo what is procedural.

My point still stands, why is the bar so low in the industry that a hobbyist (which i have said I am several times, my career lead me away from a life as a game programmer and into print) can produce works above and beyond most studios. Why is quality a pervew of the few studios and the mod community?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:14 pm 
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Obviously, the billions of dollars spent on video games proves you wrong.

So do titles like Half-Life, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and others.

You haven't made a point .. you've repeated yourself ad nauseum in the face of repeated logical arguments that disprove every single thing you've said.

You haven't created a demo of anything. You haven't the knowledge to understand why you've failed utterly. You build a model of a go-cart and criticise Ferrari's production of F1 cars.

I'm done with this thread.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:18 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
Obviously, the billions of dollars spent on video games proves you wrong.

So do titles like Half-Life, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and others.

You haven't made a point .. you've repeated yourself ad nauseum in the face of repeated logical arguments that disprove every single thing you've said.

You haven't created a demo of anything. You haven't the knowledge to understand why you've failed utterly. You build a model of a go-cart and criticise Ferrari's production of F1 cars.

I'm done with this thread.


You could looked at the youtube links i posted, after all one of my arguments Is "if i can make a high end pre rendered video streamed over you tube and can even lip sync prettly easily why is it a big studio like Cryptic can't even lip sunce a pre rendered sequence using low poly in game models?"

here
A couple static renders as well

Image

Image


Last edited by nekollx on Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:19 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
usually more then 10 though. 10 is pretty darned low. I mean, I do know a couple people who can code scary fast, but it still takes for ever. Last I checked, the biggest project that I was a part of was about 25,000 lines of code.


including or excluding reusable libraries?

excluding. We didn't write very many of them, mostly just OpenGL, OpenAL and such in the libraries used department.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:26 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
You could looked at the youtube links i posted, after all one of my arguments Is "if i can make a high end pre rendered video streamed over you tube and can even lip sync prettly easily why is it a big studio like Cryptic can't even lip sunce a pre rendered sequence using low poly in game models?"


Any idiot with a 3D modelling program can do that. What does that have to do with game programming?

Who did your AI? What model of AI did you use?

You have no clue what you're talking about. You've drawn a picture of car and think it can run? What is wrong with you? Seriously .. you have issues.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:28 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
nekollx wrote:
You could looked at the youtube links i posted, after all one of my arguments Is "if i can make a high end pre rendered video streamed over you tube and can even lip sync prettly easily why is it a big studio like Cryptic can't even lip sunce a pre rendered sequence using low poly in game models?"


Any idiot with a 3D modelling program can do that. What does that have to do with game programming?

Who did your AI? What model of AI did you use?

You have no clue what you're talking about. You've drawn a picture of car and think it can run? What is wrong with you? Seriously .. you have issues.


If any idiot can how come most game developers don't?
Eh?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:38 pm 
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Do you understand the difference between pre-rendered and in-game rendering?

Never mind .. you're clueless.

You also lack talent ... those static shots are worthy of an angsty teenager's doodles.

You haven't done anything that even remotely resembles game development. If you want to criticise current games, do it without trying to claim that you're capable of doing anything other than embarrassing yourself in a thread.

Time and again, you've ignored basic questions about CS. You couldn't program your way out of a knapsack problem.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:42 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
Do you understand the difference between pre-rendered and in-game rendering?

Never mind .. you're clueless.

You also lack talent ... those static shots are worthy of an angsty teenager's doodles.

You haven't done anything that even remotely resembles game development. If you want to criticise current games, do it without trying to claim that you're capable of doing anything other than embarrassing yourself in a thread.

Time and again, you've ignored basic questions about CS. You couldn't program your way out of a knapsack problem.


Tell me then the difference between a Prerendered high resolution animatic streamed over the internet and a...
Pre endered in game model animaic

let me give you another example

Grab Final Fantasy Crisis Core for PSP, this game is a few years old now.
Get to the Mako 5 reactor
There's a scene right at the start with Zack and Sipheroth talking, it has full lip sync and voice work using the in game engine/model

then it transitions to a four and a half full cgi memory of Sepheroth, Angeal and Genisis with full lip synch.

What is the difference between the two? they both steam off the UMD and are pre rendered.

Now fast forward a few years...
Why is it i can do the full CGI at home with no budget but Atari/Cryptic can't do the in game WITH a budget?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:32 pm 
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now you're out of my field... I'm a code monkey, not a modeler. I'll leave it to Jip to refute you there. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:40 am 
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Spartacus wrote:
nekollx wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
usually more then 10 though. 10 is pretty darned low. I mean, I do know a couple people who can code scary fast, but it still takes for ever. Last I checked, the biggest project that I was a part of was about 25,000 lines of code.


including or excluding reusable libraries?

excluding. We didn't write very many of them, mostly just OpenGL, OpenAL and such in the libraries used department.


Our 35k lines was our own code. If we included all the libraries it would be close to 100k lines. Easily.


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