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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:38 am 
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Caligari wrote:
Metal gear solid 1-4 were big name titles, uncharted 1 and 2 are big name titles, god of war is a big name title, world of warcraft/starcraft/diablo are all big name titles, battlefield 2 and a hundred others are all big name titles and I love those games and think they are of great quality.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a big name game or developer on some games, and alot of the time the big budget super titles suck terribly.

Then again I have seen alot of mods that were god awful. Most of them are just "Yeah lets do super mario brothers on the source engine" or "Yeah lets take this game and put zombies in it". Most mods are trash with some exceptions like killing floor which is fun.

So there are some really good big name titles and mods, and there are also alot of shit big name games and mods.

To just automatically assume big name sucks and mods rule is very short sighted.


I can understand that, what i'm mainly saying is if one modder/hobiest can do something at X level why isn't that a given not a crap shoot with big studios. Why is it a tripple a developer EVER drops below the moder. Shouldn't even the lowest quality AAA game be comparible to a polished hobiest/mod?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:45 am 
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There is just no way that anything you have created in that short of a time is even remotely close to the caliber of professionally developed studios even the AAA ones (WTF is a AAA developer? Are we playing baseball here? Is there some rating scale I don't know about?).

I will also bet that you can get stuck in walls of your games too. If you developed something half as big. Do you have any idea what it takes to render movies? (probably not).

I wouldn't mind seeing these games you "developed".... as I said, I highly doubt your level "X" is as high as you think it is. I really don't think you have developed as much as you think you have. The fact that you mentioned something like RPGMaker has me wondering...

I promise you that you have not created a "game" that is even remotely marketable in a 16 hours, let alone a week.

Keep in mind that you aren't going to see really huge game titles built with Dark BASIC or with C#. I love C# and for business applications it is great. Even some gaming applications it performs extremely well. The fact of the matter is no studio is going to develop with it. Maybe C# will break through some day but using those tools that you have been touting as being so great for under $100, well they are just too restrictive in the "real world". Perhaps some of those software titles you can buy will do the job and are probably similar to what studios use. However studios will get charged more for them in addition to requiring more licenses in the first place.

Modders are not creating games. They just are not the same as a developer and should not be compared to as such. It isn't difficult (as you say) to get some models and change them in the game (because that is what most mods are, just model changes with some possible attribute changes, sound files, etc). They haven't created a game.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:57 am 
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CrashTECH wrote:
Do you have any idea what it takes to render movies? (probably not).


Yes, i think i might actually....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQemNALhAIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAlFrxH2clQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r17u8Du8_p8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx4hk82LKc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZhVv3DFCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwq2fgqh9o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACnPzQKy2KM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKrg83zbTaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQnaushfddU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMGoMXN0AP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfUGffwE5cI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1DG9iniEO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1gjL_Qj3RA

I think it's safe to say i know a little about computer generated animation


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:34 am 
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4 second renders?

Did you just upload them? Youtube is blank screen?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:43 am 
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CrashTECH wrote:
4 second renders?

Did you just upload them? Youtube is blank screen?


They are of various lengths, spanning years

http://www.youtube.com/nekollx

My point still stands, considering the limitations I have why are some big budgets studios still producing inferior quality? Why is quality games the exception not the norm?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:51 am 
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nekollx wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
You really don't get it?

Nobody will play your "demo". It isn't even a game. You imported a single model. There are thousands in a real game.
There is no "story".
You used someone elses code and models (in the "real" world, that will never fly).
Nobody gave a game with a "basic environment" a good review.

Do you know anything about path finding? Collision detection? I can guarantee you the best algorithms and implementations are NOT free (for games anyway). What do you know about buffering and or sprites?

You have imported 1 model and been able to move it. That isn't a game. What you did is meaningless.

Like I said before I want you to develop a full game that can be played. Release it so we can play it, and then tell me it is easy to do. Your ignorance is blinding and you really shouldn't be trying to speak to a subject you know very little about.


Actually i've coded short games in 2d and 3d using RPGMaker, C# and Dark Basic. The first i'll admit is hardly point but the later 2 are full object oriented programing languages. My point is this though. In about 16 hours i can create a new IP, and it would be playable, in a week roughly have a short demo out.

I can do this all on a budge of less then $100 and it's 90% polished. So why is it studios with orders of magnitude more staff, resorces, and people doing this as their job not free time, and will access to the same languages i use can't get something as simple a not getting stuck in a wall (Torchlight) or lip synching (Champions) in a pre rendered CGI.

Hell Daz 3d with Mimic cost less then $100, and auto lip synces audio to imported models. Were not taking lip synch in real time it's PRE rendered and streamed like a youtube vid and a giant company like Cryptic/Atari can't get that right?


You're either lying or high if you think that you can create the quivalent of a studio game in 16 hours.

Scratch that .. you're either lying or high if you think yo ucan do it at all. Damn, you can't even get a company file server accessible from the 'net?!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:53 am 
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nekollx wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
4 second renders?

Did you just upload them? Youtube is blank screen?


They are of various lengths, spanning years

http://www.youtube.com/nekollx

My point still stands, considering the limitations I have why are some big budgets studios still producing inferior quality? Why is quality games the exception not the norm?


The video game industry was a 12 billion industry in 2008.

If it is so easy to make better games than the industry, why are you poor?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:55 am 
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Jipstyle wrote:
nekollx wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
You really don't get it?

Nobody will play your "demo". It isn't even a game. You imported a single model. There are thousands in a real game.
There is no "story".
You used someone elses code and models (in the "real" world, that will never fly).
Nobody gave a game with a "basic environment" a good review.

Do you know anything about path finding? Collision detection? I can guarantee you the best algorithms and implementations are NOT free (for games anyway). What do you know about buffering and or sprites?

You have imported 1 model and been able to move it. That isn't a game. What you did is meaningless.

Like I said before I want you to develop a full game that can be played. Release it so we can play it, and then tell me it is easy to do. Your ignorance is blinding and you really shouldn't be trying to speak to a subject you know very little about.


Actually i've coded short games in 2d and 3d using RPGMaker, C# and Dark Basic. The first i'll admit is hardly point but the later 2 are full object oriented programing languages. My point is this though. In about 16 hours i can create a new IP, and it would be playable, in a week roughly have a short demo out.

I can do this all on a budge of less then $100 and it's 90% polished. So why is it studios with orders of magnitude more staff, resorces, and people doing this as their job not free time, and will access to the same languages i use can't get something as simple a not getting stuck in a wall (Torchlight) or lip synching (Champions) in a pre rendered CGI.

Hell Daz 3d with Mimic cost less then $100, and auto lip synces audio to imported models. Were not taking lip synch in real time it's PRE rendered and streamed like a youtube vid and a giant company like Cryptic/Atari can't get that right?


You're either lying or high if you think that you can create the quivalent of a studio game in 16 hours.

Scratch that .. you're either lying or high if you think yo ucan do it at all. Damn, you can't even get a company file server accessible from the 'net?!


i never said a full studio game in 16 hours, not once. I have repetedly said "a playable demo" as a point of reference.

But i guess expecting big budget studios with far more staff, resources, and supplies then me being able to produce a product in a grand scale i can produce in a micro scale is asking to much.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:00 pm 
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Being able to run around with a VS model in an open space is NOT a playable demo. It is trash. Stop failing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
Being able to run around with a VS model in an open space is NOT a playable demo. It is trash. Stop failing.


And a voice synched prerendered CGI streamed over youtube doesn't compare to a voice synched streamed over internet cgi for Champions how?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:13 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
My point still stands, considering the limitations I have why are some big budgets studios still producing inferior quality? Why is quality games the exception not the norm?

Do you know what marketing is? How much it costs? Testing and Quality Assurance/Control? Do you know how much render farms cost? How much a really good developer machine costs? How much it costs to maintain multiple development environments? Do you know what it takes to design a game engine? Do you know a thing about computer graphics (NOT rendering)? What about the developer salaries? You have to pay them VERY well to get them to work the kind of hours required. You have 10 developers working full time, they are going to make 60-100k / year benefits and all. Then project managers, content developers, writers, artists, etc... How about office space? Internet access? Electricity and utilities?

Do you actually KNOW anything about ACTUAL game development and design? (hint, the answer is no you don't).

Here is an example: Have you any experience with network protocols and design? My senior design team (3 of us) took 6 weeks to develop just the networking code. 6 weeks! We worked 10 hour days sometimes too.

Our project was over 35k lines of our own developed source code. We were using a library (SDL.NET) to interface with the hardware. We just told the SDL what to do. We used a freely available A* library too (this was a school project after all, and not for sale).

If you use standard LOC measurement techniques. A good developer only turns out 300 LOC per day. Do the math, that works out to almost 4 man months worth of time. Sure there were 3 of us working on it, but we had other classes, reports to do, we developer our own graphics, etc. I wouldn't dream of selling that game. It isn't "good" enough. But I know a boat load more about development, gaming, graphics, and working on a large project than I ever did before that.

I wish I could see your videos, but I really still don't think you have done anything of note....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:16 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
Being able to run around with a VS model in an open space is NOT a playable demo. It is trash. Stop failing.


And a voice synched prerendered CGI streamed over youtube doesn't compare to a voice synched streamed over internet cgi for Champions how?
I haven't been able to see your videos. I haven't played Champion or whatever. So I can't compare. The point is, your 16 hours is NOTHING in terms of game development time.

You are really being nit-picky over lip syncing... it is the only argument you have been able to make that has credibility, so I can see why you are clutching to it.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:21 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
nekollx wrote:
My point still stands, considering the limitations I have why are some big budgets studios still producing inferior quality? Why is quality games the exception not the norm?

Do you know what marketing is? How much it costs? Testing and Quality Assurance/Control? Do you know how much render farms cost? How much a really good developer machine costs? How much it costs to maintain multiple development environments? Do you know what it takes to design a game engine? Do you know a thing about computer graphics (NOT rendering)? What about the developer salaries? You have to pay them VERY well to get them to work the kind of hours required. You have 10 developers working full time, they are going to make 60-100k / year benefits and all. Then project managers, content developers, writers, artists, etc... How about office space? Internet access? Electricity and utilities?

Do you actually KNOW anything about ACTUAL game development and design? (hint, the answer is no you don't).

Here is an example: Have you any experience with network protocols and design? My senior design team (3 of us) took 6 weeks to develop just the networking code. 6 weeks! We worked 10 hour days sometimes too.

Our project was over 35k lines of our own developed source code. We were using a library (SDL.NET) to interface with the hardware. We just told the SDL what to do. We used a freely available A* library too (this was a school project after all, and not for sale).

If you use standard LOC measurement techniques. A good developer only turns out 300 LOC per day. Do the math, that works out to almost 4 man months worth of time. Sure there were 3 of us working on it, but we had other classes, reports to do, we developer our own graphics, etc. I wouldn't dream of selling that game. It isn't "good" enough. But I know a boat load more about development, gaming, graphics, and working on a large project than I ever did before that.

I wish I could see your videos, but I really still don't think you have done anything of note....


try my youbube channel

http://www.youtube.com/nekollx

and yes i know about how much work coding is my job is to edit and prep a print magazine, manage and code the website (php/mysql) and be the IT guy. I'm looking at a page right now with over 300 LOC right now. I'm also on call 24/7.

So i know, and i still ask if I can produce X in my off hours with no budget, why can't developers with so much more hit AT LEAST that.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:24 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
nekollx wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
Being able to run around with a VS model in an open space is NOT a playable demo. It is trash. Stop failing.


And a voice synched prerendered CGI streamed over youtube doesn't compare to a voice synched streamed over internet cgi for Champions how?
I haven't been able to see your videos. I haven't played Champion or whatever. So I can't compare. The point is, your 16 hours is NOTHING in terms of game development time.

You are really being nit-picky over lip syncing... it is the only argument you have been able to make that has credibility, so I can see why you are clutching to it.


I'm not so much clutching to is as everytime i try and make a micro to macro game programing comparison (my demo to Torchlight wall bug for example) i keep being shot down as "your demo means nothing"

Since my demo is not hosted online anymore but my renders ARE....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Wow, quite the shitstorm in here.

Question for those that actually know:

How many developers, coders, writers, everything elsers work on a decent budget game? I saw someone say 10 full time developers higher up. How many part time people working? Maybe someone can give a run down of how it ACTUALLY works so people like me, and I'm assuming a few others here, can have a grasp on the reality of what it takes to produce a game. I'm not trying to get in the way of the argument here but I'm a little ignorant on the subject.


Last edited by US_Ranger on Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:25 pm 
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You haven't made anything of note... seriously.

your x is here

-> x
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................... <- Game Studios are here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:27 pm 
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US_Ranger wrote:
Maybe someone can give a run down of how it ACTUALLY works so people like me, and I'm assuming a few others here, can have a grasp on the reality of what it takes to produce a game. I'm not trying to get in the way of the argument here but I'm a little ignorant on the subject.
The best way to figure this out... is watch the credits at the end of a game. SRSLY.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:29 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
US_Ranger wrote:
Maybe someone can give a run down of how it ACTUALLY works so people like me, and I'm assuming a few others here, can have a grasp on the reality of what it takes to produce a game. I'm not trying to get in the way of the argument here but I'm a little ignorant on the subject.
The best way to figure this out... is watch the credits at the end of a game. SRSLY.
Also, it really depends on the game and the studio to be honest.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:57 pm 
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also Crash while it may not be my AMVs i do have static renders here for a point of reference.

http://nekollx.deviantart.com/


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:59 pm 
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usually more then 10 though. 10 is pretty darned low. I mean, I do know a couple people who can code scary fast, but it still takes for ever. Last I checked, the biggest project that I was a part of was about 25,000 lines of code.


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