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 Post subject: gaming question
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:30 am 
Willamette
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First off, I'm sorry but this isn't really a PC gaming question, but rather a PS3 (Playstation 3) gaming question, but this was the only area on this forum I thought it would be appropriate to ask.

So, here's my question:
Can you share PS3 games between people (as long as only one person uses it at a time)? (As in, a library of games shared between family members, for example.)

I have Grand Tourismo 5, which just came out, and my brother wanted to play it on his PS3. Can this be done, even if I've already played it on my PS3 (because I know the games has to install some stuff on the PS3 to play it)? But only one of us can play the game at one time because there is only ONE disc.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:16 pm 
Thoroughbred
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Very short answer is yes, he can play your game on his PS3 and it will work just fine and vice versa.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:31 am 
Willamette
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Now, here is the harder question... is this considered at least somewhat legal???

In my opinion, I want to say yes, because: (a) I'm not charging him, so I'm not getting any type of funds or profit by doing this, (b) I purchased the game legally in a store, and (c) there is only one copy (and the original copy, so no copies have been made. What's the answer as to legality of doing this (yes, I know we're all techies and not really lawyers)??

When I think of our little "pool of games" I tend to think back to rental services like GameFly and Blockbuster, etc, where you can rent games for a fee.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:00 pm 
Thoroughbred
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I can't see any way how it would be illegal to be honest. It's your game you can loan it out to who ever you like, there's no DRM preventing it from working or TOS that I know of that says that you can't let someone else play your game =S.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:24 am 
Java Junkie
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Most game licenses allow you to install the game on one and only one system ... so yes, this violates the TOS and EULA for the game.

It is called piracy regardless of whether you accept money for the game. If you steal something and give it away, it is still theft.

If he wants to play the game, he needs to buy it.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:26 am 
Java Junkie
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XoRn wrote:
It's your game you can loan it out to who ever you like, there's no DRM preventing it from working or TOS that I know of that says that you can't let someone else play your game =S.


No, it is not 'his game'.

When you purchase software, you're buying a license to use that software ... you're not buying the software itself. You are agreeing to use the software in accordance with the rules put forth in the EULA.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:59 am 
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Jipstyle wrote:
Most game licenses allow you to install the game on one and only one system ... so yes, this violates the TOS and EULA for the game.

It is called piracy regardless of whether you accept money for the game. If you steal something and give it away, it is still theft.

If he wants to play the game, he needs to buy it.


I'm not sure that a PS3,xbox, or wii game gives you an EULA that you click yes to accept before it downloads info to your ps3. Unlike pc games that make you click yes to all sorts of questions. I would also think that if it did violate an EULA that all the places that make money renting out ps3, xbox, and wii games would be getting sued by the game makers. Might be why they are having trouble doing anything with gamestop reselling used games as there isn't an EULA on console games (or not many games that I recall seeing one on). Then you have the whole First-sale doctrine that says you do own it and can sell it. EULA's are starting to change their wording to get around the First-sale doctrine, but I think the courts are still fighting over all of this.

I remember a long time ago even some PC games allowed you to sell or transfer a game to someone else, but you had to uninstall everything from your machine. I'm sure that has pretty much gone away with the whole idea of selling license to play a game (and drm/lawyer involvement).


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:17 am 
Java Junkie
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jlh304 wrote:
Jipstyle wrote:
Most game licenses allow you to install the game on one and only one system ... so yes, this violates the TOS and EULA for the game.

It is called piracy regardless of whether you accept money for the game. If you steal something and give it away, it is still theft.

If he wants to play the game, he needs to buy it.


I'm not sure that a PS3,xbox, or wii game gives you an EULA that you click yes to accept before it downloads info to your ps3. Unlike pc games that make you click yes to all sorts of questions. I would also think that if it did violate an EULA that all the places that make money renting out ps3, xbox, and wii games would be getting sued by the game makers. Might be why they are having trouble doing anything with gamestop reselling used games as there isn't an EULA on console games (or not many games that I recall seeing one on). Then you have the whole First-sale doctrine that says you do own it and can sell it. EULA's are starting to change their wording to get around the First-sale doctrine, but I think the courts are still fighting over all of this.


You accept the EULA by installing the game. The EULA is included in the game package.

The rental agreement requires you to uninstall the game when you're done.

The first-sale doctrine doesn't apply because you are not buying the software. You're buying a license to use the software. The first-sale doctrine also doesn't apply because you can sell the license. We aren't talking about selling the game .. we're talking about someone installing the game on more than one machine.

Quote:
I remember a long time ago even some PC games allowed you to sell or transfer a game to someone else, but you had to uninstall everything from your machine. I'm sure that has pretty much gone away with the whole idea of selling license to play a game (and drm/lawyer involvement).


PC games were always license-based. You've always been allowed to sell the license .. then and now.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:14 pm 
Northwood
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But, since you can legally sell that game to Gamestop without being sued, couldn't you say that lending it is the same thing?


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
You accept the EULA by installing the game. The EULA is included in the game package.

I think your off on your EULA on a PS3 game. I've never read a EULA when putting a ps3/xbox/wii game disc into my machine. Unlike a PC game where they force you to read it or at least click yes I read it and agree. In fact for the most part if a console game installs anything on the disc it's pretty much done unknown to the user. Yeah some game makers might put something in an instruction booklet but the law has already said those do not hold up because you cannot prove the customer ever read it or knew it was there. Unlike pc games where they force you to read it and click accept (they use to not do that until they lost court cases because they couldn't prove a person ever saw the EULA).
Jipstyle wrote:
The rental agreement requires you to uninstall the game when you're done.

Never saw one from blockbuster saying that. Looked on Gamefly and missed it if they do. Secondly not sure you can just remove random game files that are put on your console by some discs. Saved games sure, if copied disc to drive sure, other files not so sure about (or at least that an average person could easily and quickly do).
Jipstyle wrote:
The first-sale doctrine doesn't apply because you are not buying the software. You're buying a license to use the software. The first-sale doctrine also doesn't apply because you can sell the license. We aren't talking about selling the game .. we're talking about someone installing the game on more than one machine.

He isn’t really talking about installing the game. He is saying he gives his game disc to his brother. His brother plays the game in another ps3. He is saying because the game installed a few random files on his ps3 (that he didn’t click or agree to it just does it), and the game will only play if you have the disc. Brother gives disc back game no longer can be played on brother’s ps3. Again this is just like renting the game or buying a used copy from someone. It is legal to do. Nowhere did he say he copied the entire game disc to the drive and made it playable without the disc.

Jipstyle wrote:
PC games were always license-based. You've always been allowed to sell the license .. then and now.

Ok you have it backwards here. Software companies have been trying to say their software is licensed, and not sold, thus you are not allowed to sell the license. The license part is how they are trying to get around the first-sale doctrine with a licensing agreement.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:22 pm 
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nmanguy wrote:
But, since you can legally sell that game to Gamestop without being sued, couldn't you say that lending it is the same thing?


Yes he is loaning the game to someone like blockbuster or gamefly. Or just like going to gamestop. Jip is bringing in EULA which the courst have ruled on PC games is a binding contract, but they have also ruled that it must have a button to click to agree to the EULA. Console games don't bring up an EULA that you click agree too. Because if they did and the EULA said you can't resale then gamestop would be out of business. Heck console games are trying to figure out how to make money off of used games since they can not stop the sale of them (like putting in activation codes to play online that someone would have to purchase on a used copy to play online with). Maybe the next gen of consoles will have EULA that come up and you have to agree to, but current ones do not.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:00 pm 
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To clarify the rental company issue...

Places like Blockbuster pay the movie and game studios for the right to rent out their movies and games.

They don't just buy a copy at regular retail price and rent it out without paying the studios.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:18 pm 
Java Junkie
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nmanguy wrote:
But, since you can legally sell that game to Gamestop without being sued, couldn't you say that lending it is the same thing?


No.

Before selling the game, you have to uninstall it.

If he uninstalled the game before lending it, he is ok. If the game is installed on more than one system at the same time, he is violating the EULA.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:23 pm 
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jlh304 wrote:
Jipstyle wrote:
You accept the EULA by installing the game. The EULA is included in the game package.

I think your off on your EULA on a PS3 game. I've never read a EULA when putting a ps3/xbox/wii game disc into my machine. Unlike a PC game where they force you to read it or at least click yes I read it and agree. In fact for the most part if a console game installs anything on the disc it's pretty much done unknown to the user. Yeah some game makers might put something in an instruction booklet but the law has already said those do not hold up because you cannot prove the customer ever read it or knew it was there. Unlike pc games where they force you to read it and click accept (they use to not do that until they lost court cases because they couldn't prove a person ever saw the EULA).
Jipstyle wrote:
The rental agreement requires you to uninstall the game when you're done.

Never saw one from blockbuster saying that. Looked on Gamefly and missed it if they do. Secondly not sure you can just remove random game files that are put on your console by some discs. Saved games sure, if copied disc to drive sure, other files not so sure about (or at least that an average person could easily and quickly do).
Jipstyle wrote:
The first-sale doctrine doesn't apply because you are not buying the software. You're buying a license to use the software. The first-sale doctrine also doesn't apply because you can sell the license. We aren't talking about selling the game .. we're talking about someone installing the game on more than one machine.

He isn’t really talking about installing the game. He is saying he gives his game disc to his brother. His brother plays the game in another ps3. He is saying because the game installed a few random files on his ps3 (that he didn’t click or agree to it just does it), and the game will only play if you have the disc. Brother gives disc back game no longer can be played on brother’s ps3. Again this is just like renting the game or buying a used copy from someone. It is legal to do. Nowhere did he say he copied the entire game disc to the drive and made it playable without the disc.

Jipstyle wrote:
PC games were always license-based. You've always been allowed to sell the license .. then and now.

Ok you have it backwards here. Software companies have been trying to say their software is licensed, and not sold, thus you are not allowed to sell the license. The license part is how they are trying to get around the first-sale doctrine with a licensing agreement.


Please read up on the law and the history of software.

You can buy and sell a license. You've been doing it since software was first licensed in the late 60s.

This is all covered in first year IP and IT law courses, by the way .. straight from the textbook.

Oh, and you don't have to click on something on the screen in order to make a EULA valid .. you do have to install the software. The change to which you referred (Yeah some game makers might put something in an instruction booklet but the law has already said those do not hold up because you cannot prove the customer ever read it or knew it was there.) actually covered when the EULA came into force. Publishers used to argue that it was valid the instant you purchased the game. This was thrown out in court because you couldn't read the EULA (which was in the package) prior to purchase. However, you can read the EULA prior to installing the game and the court agreed that it is the customer's responsibility to do so.

Finally, you should read up on the recent decision in favour of upholding EULA's in an unopened package ... Ars Technica offers an interesting and easily understood summary.

Ars Technica wrote:
So, to recap: EULAs are binding, they can control just about everything you might dream up, and only Congress can change the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:33 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
Please read up on the law and the history of software.
You can buy and sell a license. You've been doing it since software was first licensed in the late 60s.
This is all covered in first year IP and IT law courses, by the way .. straight from the textbook.
Oh, and you don't have to click on something on the screen in order to make a EULA valid .. you do have to install the software. Finally, you should read up on the recent decision in favour of upholding EULA's in an unopened package ... Ars Technica offers an interesting and easily understood summary.
Ars Technica wrote:
So, to recap: EULAs are binding, they can control just about everything you might dream up, and only Congress can change the situation.


So have you ever tried to sale your license for autodesk (pick any of their products). Guess what you cannot because it's a license that they sold to the first end user and the first end user only. That matter was proven with the appeals court. You the end user can only buy the right to use the license not to resell. Which even your ars technica article states. So why do you say you can sell a license?

Yet Texas and CA have both said first sale doctrine applies to bundled software no matter what the EULA states. You may also like to read on Davidson & Associates v. Internet Gateway inc. This is where an EULA is binding because defendants expressly consented to the terms of the EULA and Terms of Use by clicking I Agree and Agree (basically without the I Agree button the EULA is not binding).

But the question is about ps3 games. Where the end user does not install any software they play it from a disc. There is an EULA printed on the back inside cover of the manual. But the courts have ruled you can't hide your EULA which this basically is doing since no one needs to ever look at the manual or even know there is an EULA if the game even comes with a manual any more (hence why the above case is important about clicking the I Agree button). In fact looking at an EULA it even says you cannot resell the game (transforms war for cybertron in this case), but guess what all sorts of business do. Could it be because the EULA on a console doesn't hold up because the end user never expressly consents to it? In fact good luck returning an opened game that you don't agree to the EULA on. MS lost its EULA case because the consumer couldn't easily find the EULA and was next to impossible to return the product. Has MS changed things to make it so you can return it and find the EULA. Yes they have you have to click to consent and they take returns. Also if the end user is under 18 can they even legally enter into a binding contract such as an EULA without parental consent? Not sure how the law views that but that would be an issue for games.

So from a totally technically legal prospective can you let your brother borrow a copy of GT5 guess not. Is anybody going to come after you for doing it, nope not when they could go after Gamestop and get some real money. Let's face it they don't even need gamestop as a channel when they have Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, and digital download to name a few. In fact Gamestop has said it makes all it's real money from selling used games. Really I think this issue is still very complex and will probably have more court cases/laws dealing with it.
You also have the Clayton Act which most EULA and TOS would make companies liable for Clayton act violations. Then you have states that have changed their contract laws (Anti-UCITA bills) which says if the EULA is not disclosed prior to the sale are unenforceable and gives the purchaser rights of an "owner of a copy" at time of purchase. Which is probably why some game companies are putting their EULA's on the web and saying you should go there and read it first before buying a game. Of course that would put a hamper on impulse buying.


Last edited by jlh304 on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:21 pm 
Northwood
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Jipstyle wrote:
nmanguy wrote:
But, since you can legally sell that game to Gamestop without being sued, couldn't you say that lending it is the same thing?


No.

Before selling the game, you have to uninstall it.

If he uninstalled the game before lending it, he is ok. If the game is installed on more than one system at the same time, he is violating the EULA.


How do you "uninstall" a game that is contained on the disc?


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:22 am 
Java Junkie
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jlh304 wrote:
So from a totally technically legal prospective can you let your brother borrow a copy of GT5 guess not.


/thread


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:52 pm 
Northwood
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Jipstyle wrote:
jlh304 wrote:
So from a totally technically legal prospective can you let your brother borrow a copy of GT5 guess not.


/thread


This is about a physical copy, there's no installation. When a physical copy is involved, it's like letting someone borrow your bike.

Physical games with no license (you have the disc, you can play the game) are like bikes, there's no law that says the bike companies have a right to the bike itself but rather the user has to have the license to the bike in order to use it.

And therefore given the First-Sale Doctrine, you CAN give someone the game to play. There's nothing wrong with it, legally or morally, assuming that there is no license attached to the game.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Dwood15 wrote:
This is about a physical copy, there's no installation. When a physical copy is involved, it's like letting someone borrow your bike.

Physical games with no license (you have the disc, you can play the game) are like bikes, there's no law that says the bike companies have a right to the bike itself but rather the user has to have the license to the bike in order to use it.

And therefore given the First-Sale Doctrine, you CAN give someone the game to play. There's nothing wrong with it, legally or morally, assuming that there is no license attached to the game.


You're correct: if there is no installation, then your physical copy is the installation. You take it out of the drive and it is uninstalled.

This thread has turned into a huge mess of FUD caused by a bunch of incorrect legalese being spouted by people who don't know the law. In the end, it comes down to common sense: you aren't allowed to have the game installed in two places at once.

Whether or not there is a license is a difference subject and one that is not relevant to this thread. I suspect there is a license attached to the use of the software .. it may be from Polyphony or it may be buried in the PS3's EULA .. but I'm not certain and honestly not concerned enough to look it up.


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 Post subject: Re: gaming question
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:20 pm 
Northwood
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I believe the one who brought us into the state it's in was you, Jip. Were you bored and trying to stir up some fun or something? :twisted:


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