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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:12 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
There are some commercial products that just don't have equivalent F/OSS version.

And I don't care what you say, GIMP != Photoshop... However, it does work well for most people that *think* they need Photoshop...


I think that last sentence sums up gimp very well. Seriously.. how many people really need something more than what gimp + kolourpaint provide? The more expensive versions of PS are just full of technical stuff for professionals.

Gimp would probably be a lot better if it was developed by more artsy people. That's probably the number one reason why there aren't that great of media creation apps (I still can't find a damn video editor that actually works right). But that's a sacrifice I make personally, and I'm not a very creative person in that aspect.

Jipstyle wrote:
True on both counts, though the quality has improved drastically since they released 1.0.


Indeed it has. When I saw it on digg, I installed HL2 and it worked really well. I couldn't get the resolution to display correctly, but the intro worked better than ever before. None of the graphics seemed to be missing. It just didn't support the higher quality stuff, or at least not very well.

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I do believe in supporting open source software, but I don't believe that limiting my personal computing options helps OSS. I need to use MS Office from time to time because the people who pay my invoives require my output be in a format they can read, and I need to use Visio on a regular basis because I have yet to find an OS product that even comes close to being a replacement. They are so far off that I can't even pick up a project like Dia and help develop it into a viable replacement for Visio.


I think that's where we'll always disagree. I personally have some non-free software installed (namely, the nvidia graphics drivers, and a few trivial things buried deep inside Ubuntu), but I fight as hard as I can to get away from all non-free software. The only exception I'll ever make is a game. Sure, I'd prefer stuff like CS:S to be free software, but that's never going to happen. But I wouldn't use any productivity software from a proprietary vendor. Even if IE was better than anything else I could find, I wouldn't use it, even with wine. I'd never use MS Office if I liked it better than OO.o. I just don't want to support it in any way because it's against my ethics. But I'm not crazy like Stallman is these days.. I'm more like how he was when he was running a proprietary kernel himself ;)

But this whole open source thing, imo, misses the purpose. It's not about writing good software (although that's a great thing). Open source is a development model. It's outstanding, but, like RMS has said, the software vendors aren't dumb. They're capable of writing good software. If their development model at one point turns out to be better than open source, then will we just turn back to them? I say no.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Yuri, you didn't even touch the point about how he has to use Visio for work. I can understand being against the idea of using productivity software from a proprietary vendor (I'm right there with you), but when your job (income = livelihood) depends on you using that software, then I'll suck it up and use it, simply because I have to.

I'm a vegetarian, but if I'm starving in the woods somewhere, and I see a rabbit..... well, I'll let you guess what comes next.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:58 pm 
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that Linux guy wrote:
Yuri, you didn't even touch the point about how he has to use Visio for work. I can understand being against the idea of using productivity software from a proprietary vendor (I'm right there with you), but when your job (income = livelihood) depends on you using that software, then I'll suck it up and use it, simply because I have to.

I'm a vegetarian, but if I'm starving in the woods somewhere, and I see a rabbit..... well, I'll let you guess what comes next.


If it's required by your company, then there's not a whole lot you can do about it, except keep asking that to be changed. But if you're just using it because you personally prefer it, then I'd say to do without.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:13 am 
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yurimxpxman wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
There are some commercial products that just don't have equivalent F/OSS version.

And I don't care what you say, GIMP != Photoshop... However, it does work well for most people that *think* they need Photoshop...


I think that last sentence sums up gimp very well. Seriously.. how many people really need something more than what gimp + kolourpaint provide? The more expensive versions of PS are just full of technical stuff for professionals.

Gimp would probably be a lot better if it was developed by more artsy people. That's probably the number one reason why there aren't that great of media creation apps (I still can't find a damn video editor that actually works right). But that's a sacrifice I make personally, and I'm not a very creative person in that aspect.


"Artsy people" should not write code. Code that looks pretty or has pretty variable names doesn't always mean it is efficient code. In fact, a lot of really good code is ugly.

The problem is, for people who want Photoshop (whether they need it or not) GIMP is not it. I never liked having the free floating windows. I know there is GIMP Shop, but even that, is just a container window around the free floating windows.

that Linux guy wrote:
I'm a vegetarian, but if I'm starving in the woods somewhere, and I see a rabbit..... well, I'll let you guess what comes next.
You let the rabbit go, and eat the leaves on the trees? :)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:59 am 
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CrashTECH wrote:
The problem is, for people who want Photoshop (whether they need it or not) GIMP is not it. I never liked having the free floating windows. I know there is GIMP Shop, but even that, is just a container window around the free floating windows.


You'd seriously not use a program just because you don't like the way the windows are arranged? If you're using a large enough screen, imo, it's a blessing. I've never liked Photoshop's arrangement. But there are some tools I miss from it, too.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:40 am 
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yurimxpxman wrote:
I think that's where we'll always disagree. I personally have some non-free software installed (namely, the nvidia graphics drivers, and a few trivial things buried deep inside Ubuntu), but I fight as hard as I can to get away from all non-free software. The only exception I'll ever make is a game. Sure, I'd prefer stuff like CS:S to be free software, but that's never going to happen. But I wouldn't use any productivity software from a proprietary vendor. Even if IE was better than anything else I could find, I wouldn't use it, even with wine. I'd never use MS Office if I liked it better than OO.o. I just don't want to support it in any way because it's against my ethics. But I'm not crazy like Stallman is these days.. I'm more like how he was when he was running a proprietary kernel himself ;)


:lol:

You bend the rules to game; I bend the rules to make a living. I'm not going to convince my clients to change over from MS ... and I'm certainly not going to stop making money just because they use Word.

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But this whole open source thing, imo, misses the purpose. It's not about writing good software (although that's a great thing). Open source is a development model. It's outstanding, but, like RMS has said, the software vendors aren't dumb. They're capable of writing good software. If their development model at one point turns out to be better than open source, then will we just turn back to them? I say no.


It doesn't miss the purpose; it has a different purpose than the one you intend.

There are many software development models and they will all work very well or very poorly depending on the people involved. Some people work best in a distributed OSS model and some people work best in a large cascading / waterfall environment (poor bastards). Some prefer Agile, etc etc..


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:53 am 
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yurimxpxman wrote:
CrashTECH wrote:
The problem is, for people who want Photoshop (whether they need it or not) GIMP is not it. I never liked having the free floating windows. I know there is GIMP Shop, but even that, is just a container window around the free floating windows.


You'd seriously not use a program just because you don't like the way the windows are arranged? If you're using a large enough screen, imo, it's a blessing. I've never liked Photoshop's arrangement. But there are some tools I miss from it, too.
Never said I wouldn't use it (and I have) however, it is, as far as I can see, on par with Paint .NET, which I have used more recently. However, for heavy duty image editing (photography) Gimp / Paint.NET just don't hack it.

Also, there is a LARGE base of users who won't use something if they don't like the way it is set up. Why should I use an application if I don't like the flow of the UI?

You even pointed out that there isn't a good video package / application in the F/OSS world. Which is okay for you as you said, because you don't have a huge interest in it. For me, I have a great interest in Air shows, video and photography. I just made a DVD Movie last night from the footage I shot on my B-17 ride. Find me something that works as well and is intuitive as Sony Vegas and Sony DVD Architect, and I would seriously consider using it.

Sometime last year I tried to move to Linux for everything I did. I found many DVD authoring applications (well, maybe just a handful) and none of them worked well under Linux. I gave up and went back to my Ulead Video studio that came with my video capture device. I didn't like OOo and the lack of Excel like data handling. There wasn't a single applications that handled all of my email/calendaring as well as Outlook does.

As far as creating that equivalent software in a F/OSS structure... I just don't see many of those applications becoming free. There is too much money to be made from it. If the developers of some really stable, very powerful application are smart (read: want to make money), there never will be a "free" application equal it (although many will be like it). People pay for some of the higher end software, because it WORKS and it works well. It is feature rich and well supported (there aren't many F/OSS projects I can pick up the phone and get support).

I make my living from Windows, and writing software for it. I use some very powerful and proprietary applications for my hobbys. Linux is also a hobby. However I can't easily use it at work (not bloodly likely at all actually) and it doesn't support my other hobbies well. Someday, I hope that it does. Until then, the features I get is still worth my money. So I spend it.

I have made use of many F/OSS applications and I really do like a large number of them. I have even planned a few utilities that I would like to use for myself that I plan on putting out there for everybody. I haven't done it yet, but I do see the niche that it fills and view it as a great idea, even if I don't see it as ever replacing pay-for software.

I do have some other questions for you though...

I don't see how proprietary software can be against your ethics? Unless the only way for you to get it is to steal it? Is it because it is software that it has to be (should be) free? How come you use anything you have to pay for? I just don't follow your line of thought. What do you really have against closed source software? (Please note, I am not trying to attack your views, I really am genuinely curious)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:55 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
I don't see how proprietary software can be against your ethics? Unless the only way for you to get it is to steal it? Is it because it is software that it has to be (should be) free? How come you use anything you have to pay for? I just don't follow your line of thought. What do you really have against closed source software? (Please note, I am not trying to attack your views, I really am genuinely curious)


I'm a firm believer in the GNU Manifesto. I couldn't state it any more clearly than he did then. I understand using proprietary software when there aren't any alternatives, but I'm very against using non-free software just because I like it better. I'd use a kolourpaint alone before I'd ever consider going back to photoshop.

As for open source missing the point.. the early founders tried to claim that they were the same as free software, just with a different name. This is not true. Open source is just a method of developing software. It has nothing to do with ethics (see also).

I'm not going to stick my nose up at someone because they don't use free software. But I hate wine because their purpose is to mix free and non-free software on the same system, which, imo, is unacceptable.

And, no.. I don't make exceptions for games. I got a free copy of HL2 and CS:S a few years ago, and I've installed them a couple times since I started using free software with the sole purpose of trying wine. I wouldn't have purchased them after I read the GNU Manifesto.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:19 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
that Linux guy wrote:
I'm a vegetarian, but if I'm starving in the woods somewhere, and I see a rabbit..... well, I'll let you guess what comes next.
You let the rabbit go, and eat the leaves on the trees? :)


ROFL! I didn't even think about that. hmmm.... tree leaves.....

yurimxpxman wrote:
And, no.. I don't make exceptions for games. I got a free copy of HL2 and CS:S a few years ago, and I've installed them a couple times since I started using free software with the sole purpose of trying wine. I wouldn't have purchased them after I read the GNU Manifesto.


I too believe in free software, but the Half-Life series of games are more than worth the money. Greatest game ever, hands down, next in line puhleeeeeeaz!!!


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