Maximum PC

So I'm down to this, Debian vs. Gentoo.

I really like the idea of the extra performance I can get by custom compiling all my code for my machine, but I'm wary that it may be more than I can handle as a Linux n00b.

I'm also looking at Debian downloads and don't know which version I should run, the stable or the testing.

What do you guys think?

///Will

Well Will,

If MPC was not the crap it is today... and more like boot. You would know your answer. Also if Imagine Publishing had not killed off Maximum Linux you would also be fine.

But if you follow the real world benchmarks gentoo does not show next to any preformance gain.

Example Gentoo running the same start services and optimized for the p4 is only 2 secs faster to boot to kde desktop than slackware that is optimized for 486...

Personally you should run slackware 10 but that is neither here or there.

Between your two you should run Debian the current testing release as the stable release "Woody" is pretty old now.

There is a great 110 meg debian iso that does a net install and on the debian net install servers are amazingly fast and max out 1.5 mbps connection and my neighbors 2.5 mbps cable connection. ( really he is at 3 according to comcast but the highest he has ever seen ever was 2.5 according to him)

Debian apt-get is amazing you will love it. Never had any issue with it runs off the latest 2.6 kernel. Wazer will probably be shocked as I normally have ill words of debian as I am a slackware user but Debian is a great stable linux even in the testing tree and apt-get is the best package management system out of any of the internet based systems.



But the best is still slack but that was not one of the choices you gave me.

Ah forget Debian be a man run berry linux

If I recall Colby uses Debian and may be able to help.

Unless you'll be satisfied with waiting for a patch or update, I'd steer clear of the testing stuff out there.

I mitakenly downloaded and subsequently tried to install a beta of BSD once..talk about tying you in knots. I knew there was a reason the documentation wasn't making any sense.

Before you install anything, I suppose you could get a liveCD of something just so you can get your feet wet...and to learn anything...learn something like pico or VI...no wait..forget VI and get used to some of the differences between what you're used to seeing in windows and what you'll see there.

Well, Will, I'm a debian user, so my loyalties lie there. Gentoo is a great distribution, but I much prefer the debian package management system.

If you are going to run and learn debian, especially on the desktop, I would run "testing". Testing isn't really "beta", it's just the inbetween term for "not quite bleeding edge, might be occasionally messed up as new stuff gets pulled downstream, but it's 99% of the time relatively up to date and good to go". Usually on the desktop I run a "testing" install with a few "unstable" packages thrown in for good measure, provided they are backward-compatible and don't require me to upgrade the world to use them.

Even unstable isn't "borked all the time", it's more "not guaranteed to be 100% functional 100% of the time". On my work desktop, I am running mostly unstable, and rarely do I really have any problems.

The security fixes and other bugfixes are generally "sucked" into testing after they have been approved, which could be any timeframe. As with any other operating system, I'd recommend being behind a happy router/firewall combo, and perhaps run your own desktop firewall for that extra layer of support.

Debian and Gentoo both have great support networks on the web and on IRC, and there are people here in the forums that use both.

live a little....do a testing verson.

Hi Will,



I'm a linux newb (sorta). I started with the Knoppix CD. Then I did a full Knoppix (debian) install. Not the compressed one - the true disk install. I went this way cuz debian is good and knoppix knows most hardware (it was designed for newbs). Still having issues with my win modem - but thats about it and all linux have winmodem problems.

At any rate - after playing with debian in the root account I can tell you its stable and fast. I was also recommended debian many times before I went knoppix and I had actually used it in the past (years ago) and I remember it as a pleasent (if not unproductive) experience. My main issue back then was getting StarOffice to work right - which it never did.

So my vote is for some form of debian.
Of course - as I said I am a newB.

Glad to see you around

Manta

Colby guess you have never visited #debian on Freenode , most of them not all but most of them are rude bastards that should be shot.

unlike the always friendly people over at #slackware. People usually dont expect use to be nice as slackware has a hard to use elitest tone to it still. But if will wanted the best support system than slackware should be his choice and not gentoo or Debian.

I noticed at a debian forum that you can't let them know you have knoppix running - they will not be nice - snobs!

Though I can kinda understand it. Don't want newbies around (I don't think it was freenode - but same attitude I bet).

I figure all the *nix user groups were probably like that.

Manta

Everyone wants to think their shit doesn't stink

I'm not saying #debian is perfect, because often it's far from it. The channel definitely has its share of RTFM-ers, but most linux channels do. There are other places you can go to get help than the "official" debian channel, and there are lots of helpful debian users out there that are willing to help. Just so happens there are plenty of bastards out there too.

I don't like the quick-to-RTFM answer format, I think it's the easy way out. I can see how people get that way (do tech support all day and you'll understand ) but I think it depends on what time of day you are there and who else is there how bad that problem really is.

And, I have been in the channel, in fact I am there all the time.

Well, Knoppix has its own support channels, and is different enough from debian that often the answers to your questions will be different. It's not really about newbs, a lot of knowledgeable people use it for a good bootable rescue distribution and other tasks.

I know on freenode they'll send you almost immediately to #knoppix (in fact it's in the topic) and it might be that way on the mailing lists too, although the mailing lists are a lot higher traffic and are more flexible.

Wow, a response like this really encourages me to listen to the rest of your advice and comments. Charming indeed.

So anyway, I'm going with the Debian testing build. If you didn't read the thread on the old forum, the plan is to take someone who has lightly used Linux before, but doesn't really feel confident enough in their Linux skills to use Linux as a daily use OS.

My plan is to build the system tomorrow, then start working on the Linux box on Monday. I have a pretty good idea of the apps I'm going to use, but I'd appreciate any more input.

I'm thinking I'll install Gnome, Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, some sort of IM app, a photo editor (the Gimp maybe?) and WineX and that should cover me.

Anyone else have any can't miss apps that I should install?

I'd definitely include the Gimp. Some prefer KDE to Gnome, it's all a matter of preference (you can always try both ). Frequently, I use Mozilla (Thunderbird works), X-Chat, GAIM, a little bit of the Gimp, occasional OpenOffice. I like gkrellm too as a nice "eye candy" toy, and I've installed lots of themes/visual choices so I can change my desktop to suit my mood.

You might have to just use the system and find out what you need or are "asking" for. Simple games are all over the place (the gnome-games package has a bunch), tuxracer is entertaining, tons of other choices. There's just so much to choose from

Wow, a response like this really encourages me to listen to the rest of your advice and comments. Charming indeed.

So anyway, I'm going with the Debian testing build. If you didn't read the thread on the old forum, the plan is to take someone who has lightly used Linux before, but doesn't really feel confident enough in their Linux skills to use Linux as a daily use OS.

My plan is to build the system tomorrow, then start working on the Linux box on Monday. I have a pretty good idea of the apps I'm going to use, but I'd appreciate any more input.

I'm thinking I'll install Gnome, Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, some sort of IM app, a photo editor (the Gimp maybe?) and WineX and that should cover me.

Anyone else have any can't miss apps that I should install?[/quote]


Well will it not like we have not had this discussion before on delphi. Imagine publishing ruine boot turn it into the fluff magnet you call maximum pc... Now I could honestly forgive you for not having almost anything linux on mpc back when max linux was around as max linux was an amazing mag. Nothing I have read has even really come close.
Want me to have a nicer over around attitude get Alex St John back from CPU and put him back writing his editorials like he did for boot. The reason that was given for him being let go was bs , as last time I would want to say it was you but not sure said that when he started wild tangent that everyone was affaird that he would be bias. And I kept my mouth shut as did not want to start a flame but the whole point of his editorials was that he was bias. He protrayed him self to be self centered big ego person who just happen to use to work for microsoft. And to top it all off he use to be Direct X's chief spin doctor. As many who still use delphi chat at the commport will know that the only reason why i still get mpc is for a 1 an issue it makes great bird cage / litter box liner. I also happen to subscribe to cpu for one reason Alex. So if you would like to see what a computer magazine should look like you can come fly down to florida and sit through every copy of boot until you know what it like to have a real computer magazine. While your at it you can also take pictures of the worlds largest 3dfx collection.

Anyway back on topic.

For eyecandy purposes use apt-get to get gdesklets if you plan on using gnome desktop. and google gdesklets for ther ehome page but it just a bunch of cool eyecandy different monitors and sensors that appear to part of the desktop it is pretty neat ... kde has some thing simulat but i dont remember what it is called as i dont use kde i use fluxbox with gdesklets as gdesklets work with out havin to be in gnome. You can visit http://www.xboxnps2.com/gdeskletsdemo.jpg
That is a semi recent screen cap of my gnome desktop running gdesklets on slackware 10 rc2

For other amazing pictures you can visit http://www.slackwaregallery.com

They have a lot of pimped out screenshots of slackware plus other linuxes and bsds running. Like I posted one of my images of suse 9.0 running the power pc emulator sheepshaver running photoshop5 in mac os 8.5

Sheepshaver came out before pearpc. Sheepshaver runs power pc emulation on the classic mac os side. Some may remember sheepshaver from the beos days as it orginal purpose was to allow ppc macs or beboxes which ran ppc chips to run mac os. Much later a talented programmer retro fitted sheepshaver with powerpc emulation core.

But here is a quick list of software i use on a daily basis in slackware everything you should be able to get minus the commerical ware

WineX
Codeweaver Cross over office - use it for Photoshop 7 and Office XP Dreamweaver mx 2004 MS Media encoded Media scrub Media cleaner.
X-chat
Gaim
Gimp
firefox
thunderbird
pan
gdesklets
fluxbox
sheepshaver - dont think its ever been submitted to be added t o the testing tree
xmms
rythmbox
xine
mplayer
vmware

As a n00b, I'd go with Debian. I'm not too much of a Debian fan myself, but the package management system is a lot more robust than Gentoo's. emerge is not a bad deal, but if you hate waiting for stuff to compile, then I wouldn't suggest Gentoo at all. A basic Gentoo install is a royal pain, I configured my laptop as is:

Gentoo 1.4-rc2
Linux Kernel 2.6.3
XFree 4.x
KDE 3.2
OpenOffice.org
Evolution
ALSA
KDevelop
Anjuta
Python
PHP
Apache
mod_php (Apache module for PHP)
mod_python (Python module for Apache)

This was running on an Athlon XP 1700+, 512MB RAM, 80GB hard drive, and using the XFS File System took almost a week. X11 and KDE took a long time to compile, a little over 26 hours each.

The install is a bit scary for n00b's as well, Gentoo does not have an installer like Debian (which to my chagrin, was very easy). It's a bootable Live-CD that you have to configure manually. Depending on what stage you use, it can take anywhere between 4 hours to 2 days just for the base install, no GUI, nothing.

If you really want a good Linux system right off, I suggest Debian. That, or Slackware

Man, people complain left and right about how difficult the debian installer is... and here you are pitching it to newbs

Edit: quote fixed...

Because people want some ewwwie guiiiiiii piece of shit installer. Nothing wrong simple fast ncurse based installer. Too many people want all these stupid gui installers that are not needed. Why people need that when i can do a full install of slackware , and when i say full i mean everything and have it configured in under 15 minutes .

There is no current graphical installer with debian (outside of ncurses, which is not really graphical), and it doesn't take me very long to bring a system up either. The new upcoming debian installer is still curses-based, not X-based.

The questions with graphical installers are: who do you want to attract? More new people? No new people? Do you want to make your install fast for first-time users or repeat offenders? Do you want max compatibility and a standard platform or a pretty interface that looks good?

Obviously distributions like debian and slackware have chosen compatibility and universality in the install over pretty interfaces, and I'm fine with that. Does it deter new people? Probably, but not a lot of new people start out with debian or slackware anyway.

The Debian installer is much more than the Gentoo installer...I've pulled my hair [almost] out during Gentoo installs.

I think a "polished" installer is one of the last real things to beef up a distribution. At first it's a minimum to get the damn thing installed and maintanable, but later it becomes something to really guide installation and configuration without you doing all of the hard work

Gentoo has a great framework, it's just a matter of time.