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 Post subject: Computer Science
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:40 pm 
Little Foot
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Is it highly likely that i could get hired with a bachelor degree in CS?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:05 am 
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Yes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:22 am 
Little Foot
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SWEET NO MORE SCHOOL!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:26 am 
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:D


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:13 am 
Willamette
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Well, depends on what you are going for jobwise.

My recollection from the old days (not sure if it the case now).

BS - pretty much what most people get jobs with.
MS - very few jobs (you'll hear "sorry, you are "overqualified" for the job" a lot).
PHD - research/teaching jobs only (you'll hear "sorry, you are " way too overqualified" for the job" all the time).

BS = generalized. As you go to a PHD, you specialize more and more.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:47 pm 
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jcollins wrote:
Well, depends on what you are going for jobwise.

My recollection from the old days (not sure if it the case now).

BS - pretty much what most people get jobs with.
MS - very few jobs (you'll hear "sorry, you are "overqualified" for the job" a lot).
PHD - research/teaching jobs only (you'll hear "sorry, you are " way too overqualified" for the job" all the time).

BS = generalized. As you go to a PHD, you specialize more and more.


Wait slow down...your saying you have LESS job opportunities the higher education you get?

I'm either stupid, or your thinking is horribly flawed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:54 pm 
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So, if I didn't even go to college...

I'd be bringing in the big bucks! 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:29 am 
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gamerfreak wrote:
jcollins wrote:
Well, depends on what you are going for jobwise.

My recollection from the old days (not sure if it the case now).

BS - pretty much what most people get jobs with.
MS - very few jobs (you'll hear "sorry, you are "overqualified" for the job" a lot).
PHD - research/teaching jobs only (you'll hear "sorry, you are " way too overqualified" for the job" all the time).

BS = generalized. As you go to a PHD, you specialize more and more.


Wait slow down...your saying you have LESS job opportunities the higher education you get?

I'm either stupid, or your thinking is horribly flawed.


He is absolutely correct.

As you go through grad school, your studies become more and more focussed on a single area .. so unless you are taking a job in exactly that area, your studies are wasted.

Furthermore, employers are reluctant to hire people with graduate degrees to entry-level positions. The 'you're overqualified' phrase is very common in this industry; no one wants to hire and train someone only to have them leave in 3 months because they found something better.

Having said that, you can find jobs and employers that require or prefer such education. Google hires PhDs by the boatload .. provided their research was in an area that Google can monetize. I have 3 friends who've been hired by Google in the last year (one intern, 2 permanent) and they are all PhD candidates or have graduated.

However .. in order to get a job like that, you really have to be the best of the best. If you don't already know that you are at the top of your class and your peers look to you to answer the tough questions ... don't assume that this career path is for you (not speaking to gamer specifically .. it is early yet, but I think he might be one of those people .. we'll see ;) )


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:58 am 
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gamerfreak wrote:
jcollins wrote:
Wait slow down...your saying you have LESS job opportunities the higher education you get?


Yes (and remember, this is dated. It was the thing years ago, if it's changed now, please chime in).

To clarify on what I am saying, you have less opportunity in general computer science type jobs. By it's nature, your PHD will restrict what jobs you are qualified in (doesn't necessarily mean you can't do a job though, but in the job market, perception counts). In general, there's a lot of jobs for BS, fewer jobs for MS, and even fewer jobs for PHD's. Perception is that higher degrees want more money/job in their field.

Depending on what your PHD is on, the job market may be saturated already, and if it isn't, it may not be where you want to live, pay what you want, etc.

Example, when I was in college, the big thing was Artificial Intelligence. If you got a PHD in Artificial Intelligence, there weren't too many jobs outside the big research type/government grant type companies. There wasn't really any jobs in applied Artificial Intelligence outside of that. This is pre-google by the way.

Maybe if you were lucky, you could do something in gaming AI, but I don't really recall that going to PHD's, and when you think about the quality of AI in games, it obviously didn't have much impact. You could also go for a professor type job in a college, but that's a bit up in the air because just because you are a PHD doesn't mean you can teach.

Now, entering the job market with a PHD, you had several strikes against you. 1) Few jobs (so they can cherry pick the candidates). 2) If you entered the regular job market, PHD's are overqualified for entry level jobs (they're seen as wanting too much money). If you wanted the mid-range jobs, they're looking for experience (and PHD's are still seen as overqualified).

Even if you, err, don't state your degree, since you went for the PHD, you spent more time in college, so you are getting out in the job market at a later age and the companies tend to wonder why you had no job experience by 26-28. They'll know you are hiding something, and depending on the HR department, they may or may not care to dig in further, which could cause you problems later.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:04 am 
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gam3r4eva wrote:
So, if I didn't even go to college...

I'd be bringing in the big bucks! 8)


Only if your name is Bill Gates. :)

Luckily, in America, you certainly have the opportunity to make the big bucks, even if you don't go to college. However, its not a given, you need a lot of hard work/perseverence and need to be in the right place at the right time...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:30 am 
Klamath
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So what are people’s definition of "big bucks"? That is a very relative phrase. I think I am doing ok but I don't think I make "big bucks".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:49 am 
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It varies depending on where you are living. I see it as being in front of the curve in the area you are living.

Example. If you are in Ruralville, average wage for a job might be 20k, and 60k in New York. If you are getting more than 20k in Ruralville, you are good, if you are getting 20k in NY you are screwed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:32 pm 
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I'll play the devil's advocate...

jcollins wrote:
gamerfreak wrote:
Wait slow down...your saying you have LESS job opportunities the higher education you get?

To clarify on what I am saying, you have less opportunity in general computer science type jobs. By it's nature, your PHD will restrict what jobs you are qualified in (doesn't necessarily mean you can't do a job though, but in the job market, perception counts). In general, there's a lot of jobs for BS, fewer jobs for MS, and even fewer jobs for PHD's. Perception is that higher degrees want more money/job in their field.

While the perception is that someone with a PhD is going to expect to be paid more than someone with a BS degree, you don't expect a PhD to take an entry level position either. From the job figures that I have seen, a PhD doesn't command a much higher salary than a MS (maybe 5 to 15K more); however, someone with a PhD is going to have higher expectations regarding what areas they want to work. They also tend to have much higher levels of job satisfaction in surveys. In other words, you're the one that tells the intern to do the crap work like make the homepage look better.

Also, most research positions will not consider you unless you have a PhD. The PhD demonstrates that you have the capability to perform independent original research, which is not necessary for a MS degree.

jcollins wrote:
Depending on what your PHD is on, the job market may be saturated already, and if it isn't, it may not be where you want to live, pay what you want, etc.

Personally, I believe this is a bit of an urban legend. If you look at aggregate job statistics, you don't see an alarming number of doctors unemployed. OTOH, the competition for the limited number of professor positions at top universities is fierce.

jcollins wrote:
Example, when I was in college, the big thing was Artificial Intelligence. If you got a PHD in Artificial Intelligence, there weren't too many jobs outside the big research type/government grant type companies. There wasn't really any jobs in applied Artificial Intelligence outside of that. This is pre-google by the way.

AI is kind of a funny subject area for a number of reasons, so let's leave that alone and stay general. IMO, if you've already spent time working on original research, why on earth are you going to apply for everyday work at some regular company? You should be applying for positions at research labs in either academia, government or industry. Trust me, Microsoft, Google, Sun, Intel, IBM... on and on, all want to hire the next great researchers. Just look at how many tech companies are worried that Google is gobbling up too many of the next group of big brains. Also, consider the impact that you can have on your company, check out the history of the Niagra processor at Sun.

jcollins wrote:
Even if you, err, don't state your degree, since you went for the PHD, you spent more time in college, so you are getting out in the job market at a later age and the companies tend to wonder why you had no job experience by 26-28. They'll know you are hiding something, and depending on the HR department, they may or may not care to dig in further, which could cause you problems later.

From what I've seen, the HR people don't have the requisite arithmetic skills to perform the analysis. =)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:55 pm 
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gamerfreak wrote:
jcollins wrote:
Well, depends on what you are going for jobwise.

My recollection from the old days (not sure if it the case now).

BS - pretty much what most people get jobs with.
MS - very few jobs (you'll hear "sorry, you are "overqualified" for the job" a lot).
PHD - research/teaching jobs only (you'll hear "sorry, you are " way too overqualified" for the job" all the time).

BS = generalized. As you go to a PHD, you specialize more and more.


Wait slow down...your saying you have LESS job opportunities the higher education you get?

I'm either stupid, or your thinking is horribly flawed.

Neither. It is actually business logic that is flawed. You see this lack of logic everywhere in the business world.

A young 30 year old manager is less likely to hire a qualified 40 year old than a dumb 22 year old because he or she may not feel comfortable in a leadership role with an older person on the team.

One or two managers do something unethical, therefore, the entire company of 150,000 including the lady that cleans the bathroom and barely understands English are required to take ethics training twice a year now. It's almost as if the CEO doesn't realize that his secretary doesn't have knowledge of contract law or something.

On and on... businesses are just chock full of average people pushing their stupid agendas. Unfortunately, a lot of people believe that someone with a doctorate is only book smart and probably lazy; otherwise, they would have gotten a 'real job' like everyone else instead of wasting time thinking about useless topics like computational geometry. Of course, they fail to realize that those advances in theoritcal computational geometry in the 80's led to the boom in hardware and software graphics in the 90's. And God forbid that someone with a PhD is smarter than someone with a BS!

So yes, some of these notions are true; and no, they shouldn't bother you if you are one of the top guys at your school and want to do research.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:33 am 
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Gadget wrote:
Also, most research positions will not consider you unless you have a PhD. The PhD demonstrates that you have the capability to perform independent original research, which is not necessary for a MS degree.


.. in the USA. ;)

Quote:
Quote:
They'll know you are hiding something, and depending on the HR department, they may or may not care to dig in further, which could cause you problems later.

From what I've seen, the HR people don't have the requisite arithmetic skills to perform the analysis. =)


:lol: Zing! So true.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:18 am 
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Education pays huge dividends. My AAS netted me a job in 98 for $40,000 a year. After I got laid off it took awhile to get employed again but I did. I then decided to go for a BS in IT/Poject management and I got essentially the same salary but it was my starting salary and not after 3 years of work. Got a Masters of Sci Infosec and now I make 60 grand a year starting out. I'm pursuing another Masters and of course going after some additonal certs. I get more job offers and interviews than I can keep track of. I have a perm job at 60 work as a fed contractor in louisiana. This is great because the economy here is so cheap. My house payment is $650 a month for a 1500 sq ft home in Baton Rogue with a nice size yard. I can't beat what I make.
Get your BS and get a Masters and you will see interest in you jump. I only have two certs A+ and Net+ and 10 years of experience. I make more than IT managers do here in town at some of the insurance and banking companies. Avg pay for a net admin here is maybe $45 - 50 grand on salary. I'm hourly to boot. I can't say this enough to IT people get your degrees they pay don't be my grunt packing monitors all day. I have 50 year old guys under me packing monitors for $15 or less an hour with lots of certs but not degree. I'm only 30 if you can believe it. Get a degree


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:30 pm 
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Jipstyle wrote:
Gadget wrote:
Also, most research positions will not consider you unless you have a PhD. The PhD demonstrates that you have the capability to perform independent original research, which is not necessary for a MS degree.


.. in the USA. ;)

That is true. Canada is so strange that a PhD from an American university is of very limited use in canuckland. =)

Someday we should start a new thread comparing degree programs from various countries. Do all Canadian universities require a thesis? If so, is it similar to the requirements in America? I didn't wish to suggest that someone with a MS isn't capable of performing independent research, rather, I wanted to convey the idea that society should feel confident that someone who has finished a PhD has done a significant amount of research.

Personally, I don't consider a thesis an important part of a MS program. IMHO, an MS program should focus on introducing the student to advanced material in the field and leave original research to the doctorate programs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:44 pm 
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A Degree is always well worth the effort first of all, and I'll get to your question. A degree will help you get a job in the IT industry, but since most companies want a good amount of experience, you might not start out making the top end of the salary range.

The good part is that after awhile, the degree and the experience you gain will definitely land your more money, and better positions overall.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Gadget wrote:
That is true. Canada is so strange that a PhD from an American university is of very limited use in canuckland. =)


Oh, I wouldn't say that. PhDs are about the same .. but our Master's programs are not designed as terminal degrees.

Quote:
Someday we should start a new thread comparing degree programs from various countries. Do all Canadian universities require a thesis? If so, is it similar to the requirements in America? I didn't wish to suggest that someone with a MS isn't capable of performing independent research, rather, I wanted to convey the idea that society should feel confident that someone who has finished a PhD has done a significant amount of research.


Understood.

Not all Master's programs require theses, but all Doctorates do, I think.

I think your idea for a new thread is a pretty good one!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:16 am 
Little Foot
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There are plenty of jobs for people with Masters & PHDs all over the place (I'm referring to what I'm familiar with: Sofware Jobs). You just have to look for them and find them. If you checked out DICE you would find some and other job boards. You have to work it though, do interesting research and try to find something relevant "when you get out".

You may find youself working at a big company. If you like smaller companies and startups they need them too, but it may take a little schmoozing.


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