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 Post subject: Whats a better degree?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:28 am 
Little Foot
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:04 am
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A degree in computer science or a degree in information science/technology.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:33 pm 
8086
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Location: Illinois
CIS, is geared towards teaching programming. Most schools offering CIS incorporate a lot of different languages C, C++ VB etc...that you must learn for a career specifically in the software and applications industry...
CIS locks you into a restrictive programming position and reduces your chances of taking on a management position. This doesn't mean you will never be a CIO. IT on the other hand revolves around more than just programming and can give you a little more flexibility in picking your job. IT is really geared more towards students that would like to leave their options open and teaches a bit of programming, core networking infrastructure, OS, hardware etc;..and because you now have a well rounded background its easier to secure a management position if you are offered one.

IF you are absolutely sure you would enjoy programming while being stuck behind a computer 12 hours a day then enroll in Comp Info Science.

My degree is in IT, I'm an OS/Network specialist and I manage an enterprise network which is a lot more fun than programming. I get to explore different areas of the hospital troubleshooting systems for Nurses and Doctors. I get paid to deploy to our remote clinics and on some occassions I work with our application/programming department on the OS side of things but its not everyday. The programmers are always complaining and looking for better jobs.

Programming typically pays more, depending on your experience but at times can be very routine and time consuming IMO. Also, programming is high stress and you need to be able to meet company deadlines.

An IT degree is the way to go if you want a stress free job that pays well and offers a much wider range of job satisfaction and job choice.


Last edited by itpro on Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:10 pm 
Little Foot
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how much is the pay per year working with IT?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:16 pm 
8086
8086

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Location: Illinois
started 45k but I make 65k right now (year later) and max out at 70k which is great for where I live.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:55 pm 
Little Foot
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Do you have to travel to other companies to set up networks?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:45 pm 
8086
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Location: Illinois
No not really, I have a stationary job that only requires travel to our clinics when they are having hardware problems on their servers etc;..
We are growing fast but we have so much land we just build right here and expand what we already have. In one year they added on 3 more buildings to this campus so we came in and did our thing.

Most our travel is for learning a new product at a school in some big city. Like going to Microsoft HQ for training on SMS etc;..

Our patients are all victims of combat related illness or injury and day after day they fly them home so that our soldiers get the care they need.
We make a temporary home for them so they can get better and we we work with structural engineers, doctors to set up shop and sort of go from there. Designing the wiring closets and placing WAPs in strategic areas. When a new mod/move is in the sites we have plenty of help. I myself can build networks from the ground up without even thinking twice so I am still waiting for that day to come.

Running/punching down cable only if someone forgot to bid out those kind of jobs. For the most part, we do all of the software/server/networking configurations and desktop deployments for the new buildings.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:18 pm 
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I have to chime in on this one.

I completely disagree with with ITPro on the following issues:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CIS locks you into a restrictive programming position and reduces your chances of taking on a management position. This doesn't mean you will never be a CIO. IT on the other hand revolves around more than just programming and can give you a little more flexibility in picking your job. IT is really geared more towards students that would like to leave their options open and teaches a bit of programming, core networking infrastructure, OS, hardware etc;..and because you now have a well rounded background its easier to secure a management position if you are offered one.

An IT degree is the way to go if you want a stress free job that pays well and offers a much wider range of job satisfaction and job choice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been in technical management for a number of years now and I can certainly tell you neither degree is going to give you an edge into management. They are equal. One of the sharpest managers I have ever hired had a degree in chemical engineering. Usually for technical management postitions they are looking for someone with project management experience, good organizational skills, etc, with a technical degree.

As for either job being stress free, that is completely dependent on the company you work for. SNL has over 1200 employees, yet only 5 IT for support. The avg turnover rate is 400%. Same thing for programming, I have seen guys burn out quickly due to tight dealines. The company you work for will have a bigger impact on the stress level vs the degree you earn.

Mainframe, what is more important is what do you enjoy doing? What caused you to narrow down to those two degrees specifically?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:37 am 
Little Foot
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Im not too good with math so thats a problem for computer science. I was looking to go in to the networking and security field.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:18 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:14 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Illinois
Hey,

MarkyMark and the funky bunch,

:lol: First of all, those are not issues.

My advice is based off of non-biased surveys conducted on both IT and CIS graduates. Are you saying that you disagree with the results of national surveys?If that's the case, then you need to write to the schools that polled their students after they graduated.

Second, you must have skipped over the part that you quoted me on:
"This doesn't mean you will never be a CIO"
You are preaching to the choir Mark.

For the sake of argument, leaders are not made, they are born and at the end of the day a degree is just a piece of paper.

You can apply management skills to your job as an IT project leader or as a department manager, or even as a programmer-analyst. But you have to remember that success comes from business success, and business success comes from thinking from your customers’ viewpoint.

So I stand by my recommendation :arrow: mainframe to pick IT over CIS.
Why?

Research shows over time:
CIS = programmer = no customer interaction = advanced programmer
IT = jack of all trades = more customer interaction = IT manager

IT and Management go hand in hand like a perfect marriage!
Programming is too much of a niche, making it even more difficult to slide into a management position.
Besides that, CIS is too much math to learn for not enough pay startting out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:25 pm 
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Please post links to the 'non-biased' survey's.

You are making general statements that may or may not apply to specific positions and all that is a disservice to the OP.

You are completely wrong with these two statements:
CIS = programmer = no customer interaction = advanced programmer
IT = jack of all trades = more customer interaction = IT manager


In your IT position, you are obviously more on the side of help desk support, so that is influencing your statements. There are so many different IT/CIS positions, that you cannot possibly make this broad generalized statement about IT/CIS. You mean to tell me that a Domain Admin is going to have alot of customer interaction? :lol: Or an AD Admin?


I am not saying that CIS wont lead to a position that involves little to no customer interaction. That is COMPLETELY dependent on the company he/she works for. So you cannot make broad statements on a field when in fact you do not know what you are talking about.

Also, I am not saying that IT doesnt have alot of customer interaction. Again, it is COMPLETELY dependent on the company you work for.

What I am saying is your broad statements are incorrect.


Last edited by markmark69 on Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:33 pm 
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xxmainframexpxx wrote:
Im not too good with math so thats a problem for computer science. I was looking to go in to the networking and security field.


Mainframe,

Yes the lack of mathematics does pose a problem. So CIS is probably not a good fit for you. I think in a previous post you had listed the colleges you were considering.

Each college will list their IT program under different schools. Some will call it MIS, IS, etc. I would check each one out and see if they allow for specialization (via electives) in networking/security.

For security, you might want to check this out: http://www.giac.org/
They offer many flavors of security focused certifications, and the defense contractors are heavily recruiting people with GIAC cert's (coupled with a 4yr degree). If you take them while in college, they are dirt cheap (they typically give 60-80% discounts for edu/gov).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:08 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:14 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Illinois
Tip: If you want a stress free job then work for the government.
Better job security, decent pay and early retirement.

MarkMark finally learned how to use the quote bb code...hey congratulations mark!

***Sigh

If markmark69 was a real professional then I'm certain he would be able to conduct his own search but since he's not:

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf06304/


Scroll down to table 2.

S&E and S&E Related

Take a look at S&E which is where Computer Science falls.
Say anything about management under occupation?

"hmm....no it sure doesn't ITPRO, "

Information Technology falls under S&E Related...notice the word "managers"
S&E Related | occupations.

thanks...you can have a seat now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:53 pm 
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I asked you to provide the non-biased surveys conducted on IT & CIS graduates because I graduated 17 yrs ago. My focus is on industry trends in general, not recent college graduates and their satisfaction.

The reason I asked you: I was unable to find the survey's you were referencing

You claimed the following:
1) CIS = programmer = no customer interaction = advanced programmer
2) IT = jack of all trades = more customer interaction = IT manager
3) CIS locks you into a restrictive programming position and reduces your chances of taking on a management position.

4) An IT degree is the way to go if you want a stress free job that pays well and offers a much wider range of job satisfaction and job choice.

5) There were unbiased survey's supporting your claims.

The link you provided stated what?
According to the classification you referred to in Table 2:
Individuals with degrees in Health Fields, Science & Math Teachers, Technology & Technical fields, Architects and Actuarial Science are just as likely to hold a position as a S&E manager.
Are you saying that because of that NSF classification that people with CIS degrees WONT/CANT become managers? I still dont get the point of your link

I have never said IT professionals are not able to attain management positions. What I did say is they are not more likely or less likely to attain a management position over other technical degrees.

You can call me unprofessional (which none of my subordinates, colleagues, nor superiors have ever claimed in 17+ yrs), But I am saying you are making BROAD based claims about two different fields that are incorrect.


You are making claims about an ENTIRE field on their happiness with their work environment. That is misleading at a minimum. That is no different then if I were to state “you need a 4yr degree, other wise you are a drop shot and you will never find employment. Certifications are just pieces of paper and wont get you anywhereâ€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:28 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:14 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Illinois
markmark69,

Oh boy,
What this forum doesn't need is another know it all who has to compete with every new member and mark his territorial postings.

Are you done yet? Did you feel defeated and is that why you keep coming back for more? You keep repeating yourself and you just don't seem to comprehend anything that I am saying so its pointless to continue with this arguement.

Markmark, nobody is insulting your intelligence but for somebody who claims to be so experienced I would certainly think you would know how to find studies, surveys and articles on the Internet. That's great that you dedicate much of your time on here giving advice but maybe you have been out of the loop since college. After all it has been quite some time since you went to college.

Your committment to providing advice in this forum is very much needed but it wasn't exactly advice you were providing when I recall you making a reference to my post being a bunch of bs.

You implied I don't know what I am talking about so naturally I am going to defend my statements and I told you I stand by what I say and my advice is just advice and not something to be debated.
I think you feel threatend and intimidated by my advice but I could be wrong. Let me remind you that it was you that started this debate by calling me out on many levels and you implied that I was making broad based statements.

Mark,
I am not going to waste any more time posting links for you to review and approve because the last time I checked I don't work for you. :D You're a big boy and I'm sure with your 17yrs in the field you can surely perform your own research. On your journey to find the truth be sure to report back to us with an update on your findings.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:58 am 
Klamath
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Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:06 pm
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Location: Deep in the heart of Texas!
Quote:
Tip: If you want a stress free job then work for the government.
Better job security, decent pay and early retirement.


Very true!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:23 am 
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itpro wrote:
Mark,
I am not going to waste any more time posting links for you to review and approve because the last time I checked I don't work for you. :D You're a big boy and I'm sure with your 17yrs in the field you can surely perform your own research. On your journey to find the truth be sure to report back to us with an update on your findings.



This is not a territorial issue. lol! I didnt even realize you were a new member.
If you review my posts, I readily admit when I am wrong, which I have been on many occassions.
In this case, in my profession judgement I felt you were providing unsupported, biased advice to the OP and I asked you to provide the links. I am always ready to admit I am wrong or have given incorrect advise.

You dont have to prove anything to me. However, if you do have this links to the surveys, they would be beneficial to the OP. Dont you agree?

If you dont want to post the links, then you are doing a disservice to the OP who is trying to make a choice in his future career.



The ultimate goal is to help the OP make an informed decision.
So please post the links.


Last edited by markmark69 on Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:48 am 
Northwood
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Location: Rowing on the left side.
Wise advice I'll steal from Jipstyle and suggest to both of you here -

"Don't get your panties in a bunch!" :lol: Easy kids, we're all here to help.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:53 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:14 pm
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Location: Illinois
Our CIO has a master's degree in IT so maybe I am biased towards IT.

Trying to compare CIS and IT is really like trying to compare apples to apples. I guess it really depends on the school's curriculum but for most schools not all schools and for most companies not all companies the difference is this...BTW not a broad based statement but me simply trying to distinguish the subtle differences in oppurtunities for the OP.

The folks in HR are going to match keywords when comparing resumes and that is how most applications and resumes are filtered based on what you have highlighted and what they are looking for.

Example: If I was an employer looking for fresh-out-of college graduates to fill an entry level IT Specialist opening and an entry level Programmer opening, this is how I would make my decision.

Let's say I was the one to make the final hiring decision and I was down to the last 2 canidates that I felt were most qualified for either one of the positions.

Suppose canidate A has a degree in IT and canidate B has a degree in CIS (science not systems) then I would select canidate A for the advertised IT position.
On the other side of the coin, if I was looking for a C++ programmer then I would choose canidate B with the heavy science and math background. Canidate B IMO would be a better fit as a full time programmer because of the high level concentration in math&science needed to do a stressful job. If he can solve complex math problems for 4 yrs then I think he has what it takes to develop some impressive applications. Right? I think so!

Now, for a manager position: If those same two canidates were up for a promotion to replace a recently retired IT manager one year later then I would pick the most qualified. If I felt that both were more than qualified then I would be faced with a tough decision but if I had to pick... Long story short I personally would hire canidate A with a degree in IT because that degree (in most schools) is centered around all areas of technology and encompasses the whole spectrum of IT including some of the business aspects. Plus, I know that canidate A has had a little more interaction with our customers that drive the business to new heights. Canidate A knows what the company needs in terms of growth and prosperity and knows what the customer wants. Customer B just doesn't get the chance to interact with staff as much because he is busy working on the next big project code named Alpha. Hiring a manager is contigent upon many qualities that a good manager should have but right off the bat I am leaning towards canidate A for the next CIO.

The IT curriculum in most schools really does IMO prepare you for a future in IT management. Go visit some of the college websites and compare the 2 programs and what courses they offer and how they can tie into your goals. Afterwards, I think you will see IT has a lot more to offer. :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:11 pm 
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Kudos to you Itpro! That was a great post!
:D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:21 am 
Smithfield*
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mainframe, I know MPC is a wealth of knowledge but I think you should also ask some professors or carreer advisors at your school. I just visited cornell and the post graduation employment lady had all the numbers of lowest, average and highest salaries for each degree. This is the kind of info it seems to me like you would be most interested in. It obviously varies from school to school with the top ranking schools making more money.


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