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 Post subject: Dual PSU cases?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Always been curious about this and this seemed the best forum.

Hardcore Computers Reactor uses duel PSUs but can the consumer set up a case with a duel PSU? Has anyone ever done a guide or video doing one?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:37 pm 
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Dual means two.

Duel means a fight.

Which one did you intend to use?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:20 pm 
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Quakindude wrote:
Dual means two.

Duel means a fight.

Which one did you intend to use?



Duel i want to pit 2 PSUs in a mud filled cag match inside my PC.

Joking aside i mean a 2 psu set up and any info on what was acomplished with it (double capacity? redundency? bragging rights) i'm just curious to see its aplications.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:32 am 
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nekollx wrote:
Quakindude wrote:
Dual means two.

Duel means a fight.

Which one did you intend to use?



Duel i want to pit 2 PSUs in a mud filled cag match inside my PC.

Joking aside i mean a 2 psu set up and any info on what was acomplished with it (double capacity? redundency? bragging rights) i'm just curious to see its aplications.


Generally dual or redundant PSUs are only used in server or critical applications.

How you configure them is pretty much a matter of what you want them to do. There is a host of configurations that can be used. What exactly is the intended purpose? Bragging rights don't count.

Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:03 am 
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Reloadron wrote:
nekollx wrote:
Quakindude wrote:
Dual means two.

Duel means a fight.

Which one did you intend to use?



Duel i want to pit 2 PSUs in a mud filled cag match inside my PC.

Joking aside i mean a 2 psu set up and any info on what was acomplished with it (double capacity? redundency? bragging rights) i'm just curious to see its aplications.


Generally dual or redundant PSUs are only used in server or critical applications.

How you configure them is pretty much a matter of what you want them to do. There is a host of configurations that can be used. What exactly is the intended purpose? Bragging rights don't count.

Ron


i thought i was pretty clear up there why i made this topic...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:17 am 
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nekollx wrote:
Reloadron wrote:
How you configure them is pretty much a matter of what you want them to do. There is a host of configurations that can be used. What exactly is the intended purpose? Bragging rights don't count.

Ron


i thought i was pretty clear up there why i made this topic...
No, it isn't. It is about as clear as gross black swamp mud.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:45 pm 
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The purpose of dual PSU's is for mission critical data integrity and computer operations. The second PSU sits there, turned on and ready to take the load should the primary PSU fail. You have to have a switching system that is aware of the line voltage and able to switch to the backup PSU as the primary is failing. Or with newer systems, it will switch to the secondary PSU when certain power parameters are not longer met with the primary PSU, thus switching to the good PSU prior to an actual failure. This allows the tech to replace the hot swappable PSU with another one and restore power redundancy.

This redundancy is typically only found in server class computers. It is also being built into some of the new oil immersion computers from Hardcore Computers because replacing a PSU in an oil filled tank is labor intensive as hell.

Is that the answer you were looking for?

For home computing, it is much better to buy a high quality PSU and instead of PSU redundancy, utilize a quality UPS device.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:18 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
Reloadron wrote:
nekollx wrote:
Quakindude wrote:
Dual means two.

Duel means a fight.

Which one did you intend to use?



Duel i want to pit 2 PSUs in a mud filled cag match inside my PC.

Joking aside i mean a 2 psu set up and any info on what was acomplished with it (double capacity? redundency? bragging rights) i'm just curious to see its aplications.


Generally dual or redundant PSUs are only used in server or critical applications.

How you configure them is pretty much a matter of what you want them to do. There is a host of configurations that can be used. What exactly is the intended purpose? Bragging rights don't count.

Ron


i thought i was pretty clear up there why i made this topic...


Possibly I could make what I am asking a little more clear. Dual PSUs can be set up in several ways.

Quote:
Joking aside i mean a 2 psu set up and any info on what was acomplished with it (double capacity? redundency? bragging rights) i'm just curious to see its aplications.


Sometimes dual PSUs are set up to run at the same time but power different sectons of a system. Example would be running a GPU pair and possibly a water cooling pump off one and rest of system off the other. A redundant configuration can be set up so if one PSU fails the other assumes the load (the total load).

Generally dual PSUs, as mentioned, are used in critical systems like servers. In those systems they are set up for total redundency.

You haven't stated how you intend to use them?

Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:19 pm 
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It's a hardware topic, in a modder's section. Don't take this the wrong way, but I take that as someone wanting to do something more than understand it.

Redundant (switching) or parallel. As Ron is pointing at, you can have it do either. There's laws though that you can't break, and as we read...we really want to know what your intention is. We want to know, because we have forethought in what you're trying to do without being specific. The law you can't break is Ohm's law, and if you do...man...there's not a lottery ticket with enough cash.

In general, if you just want two PSU's to turn on, connect one specific wire between the two to tell them both to turn on. Your motherboard header has a wire that tells them you pressed the power button and it's time to come to life. If you can't solder or the ability to place pins, you can buy the set from many places. My case came with one.

We're begging for info though, because we want to suggest much more than plugging things in. We want you to succeed and have you off an running correctly.

I think you can run anything you can throw at it on one good PSU. No need for running more than one PSU, and you don't want to run two crap PSU's in parallel. Wattage is shrinking, whether the internet feeds that to readers or not. And your wall socket shouldn't handle more than 1,200W in the first place. So then we logically switch to whether you're actual intent is to make a switch over PSU for switching when the primary fails.

I, personally and logically, can't fathom why anyone would want 2 PSU's. You want two, and I think we'd all like to suggest something more valid than just blindly telling you how to do something. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you think you're PSU is short, get a good one. I think it's just that simple.

Sorry for making a modder's topic into a hardware topic, But I feel this is the case.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:12 pm 
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OK... I am getting fed up with you guys. He is asking for information on the topic and obviously how to set up 2 PSU's in tandem. I am currently running 2 PSU's in my box and it is perfectly stable nad is perfect for a budget PSU upgrade. I can run anything I want just with 2 PSU's from scrap PC's. Basicly you hotwire one PSu so that it turns on and stays on as soon as it is plugged in. This one you use to power you graphics cards. The other you hook up like normal. For the first PSU, put a staple in the place of a paper clip in this picture:
Image
The staple goes on the same side as the little clip.
Once plugged in, the PSU will be on. This is what I do because I am lazy. The other way to do this is to splice these two wires into those on the host PSU that is hooked on the to the mobo. That way, both would fire off together. So basicly, you can leave the second PSU on all the time or just plug it in before you fire off your PC. The GPU will start only after the host power supply turns on. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:38 am 
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Sorry you have become fed up with us vistageek. The problem was and still is that the original poster never stated his intended application. You mention power for the GPU, he never mentioned anything. However had he mentioned wanting a setup, for example like as you describe I would have suggested using a relay to turn on the auxillary PSU when the main PSU was turned on. I would have also provided a drawing for the simple circuit. Literally a few bucks for a relay. A simple method to slave the auxillary PSU to the main PSU. I even went so far as to ask about exactly what you posted:

Quote:
Sometimes dual PSUs are set up to run at the same time but power different sectons of a system. Example would be running a GPU pair and possibly a water cooling pump off one and rest of system off the other. A redundant configuration can be set up so if one PSU fails the other assumes the load (the total load).


Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:57 am 
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Srry bout that. I guess now looking at it in full daytime IQ, I could see that he could even be asking how to put 2 PSU's into a single case ie. how to mount them. :P We'll just have to wait and see if he posts again. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:32 pm 
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Even more than that..."Why?"

You can, but should you? Why do you? More than likely, you don't need to run dual PSU's either. Why would anyone want to complicate things? If you need power, don't add and replace instead.

Really. I find no reason or logic behind dual PSU's unless it's a server and they're fast switching. For a user, just get a good single unit...not two shit ones and start re-wireing. Just more guess work.

I can run heafty hardware on good units, why do others need two? Again, because you can doesn't mean you should.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:09 pm 
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weird this topic never flage my email as updating basicly i just want more info on how others are doing it, curosity


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:54 pm 
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Vistageek gave an example of using one PSU for the system and another for the GPU cards. Just one example of how dual PSUs can be incorporated.

Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:58 pm 
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Reloadron wrote:
Vistageek gave an example of using one PSU for the system and another for the GPU cards. Just one example of how dual PSUs can be incorporated.

Ron


yea i notied his post, the only one not insulting me is kinda hard to ignore.


on that note if i wanted to set up a dual PSU so if one dies the other acts as a imediant UPS to pick up the slack sort of like a RAID PSU...

how would i do that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:51 pm 
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nekollx wrote:
Reloadron wrote:
Vistageek gave an example of using one PSU for the system and another for the GPU cards. Just one example of how dual PSUs can be incorporated.

Ron


yea i notied his post, the only one not insulting me is kinda hard to ignore.


on that note if i wanted to set up a dual PSU so if one dies the other acts as a imediant UPS to pick up the slack sort of like a RAID PSU...

how would i do that?


This thread got hostile, fast, and I wasn't even involved. Guys having all the fun without me?

In seriousness though, there are several higher-end cases (Silverstone, Lian-Li) that have a PSU adapter which allows two PSU's to work in tandem (press the power button, both fire up).

However, I am unaware of any way other than OEM PSU (think server or Reactor) methods for anything other than power-sharing. I myself have never seen two "standard" PSU's run in tandem for redundancy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:18 pm 
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First, nobody was insulting you. Now had you just posted this:

Quote:
if i wanted to set up a dual PSU so if one dies the other acts as a imediant UPS to pick up the slack sort of like a RAID PSU...


Way back in the very beginning you would have gotten answers much sooner.

This is done generally in rack mount server designs. If a PSU fails there is an immediate transfer to the second PSU. Between both PSUs and the system there is a switching network. The network consist generally of high power switching MOSFETS. Both power supplies are always on and running, however, the output of only one is directed to the system. A MOSFET is a (Metal Oxide Field Effect Transistor). Their merit is their ability to handle high current loads in switching applications and their speed.

The instant and rail of the primary PSU drops out of tolerance all rails are immediately switched to the second PSU and generally a flag is thrown causing an audible and visual alarm. The PSUs can be hot swapped.

Problem is these systems are complex and not something the home enthusiast can simply build.

The question becomes why I can't just get two identical PSUs and make a parallel configuration? This is because even two identical model PSUs will not regulate the same. Power supplies monitor their outputs on the rails and regulate according to what is there. If we placed for example two PSU 12 volt rails in parallel they would in a sense have a pissing contest trying to regulate their respective outputs. Things get more complex but that is a basic overview.

This is why many home enthusiast use one PSU for running say their GPUs and cooling and maybe the other for the system. Configurations like that are easily obtained. Even on this note, there are some pretty large beefy PSUs out there often precluding the need for these methods.

Ron


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 Post subject: Read Through This and wanted to do similar
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:43 am 
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I just read through these posts. Ha, its funny, I was wanting to know the same thing...having two PSU's in a computer.

I don't give one rat's rump about redundancy. So that kills that purpose.

I will be very clear here about what I am thinking I want to do with two
PSU's. I act as contributor to a number of PC forums assisting people building new computers or doing upgrading. Of course, the question comes in, how many watts do I need to purchase for a PSU? Rather than pay nearly $400 for a 1.2 Kw PSU, you could theoretically use two 650 watt PSU's which cost $70 each and maybe achieve the same thing but spend less than half the money. The people who usually want to know this question are people who are running SLI or Crossfire, usually dual cards, but sometimes triple and in rare cases quadruple cards.

I am just going to bone here for a minute gentlemen, and I am going to take like a 9800 GTX+ Overclocked card, i.e., and I am going to say at maximum game play like in Crysis, you are going to have to supply up to 250 Watts per card. So really, I need 500 working watts to run those two cards alone. Even gamers want to save money on their new builds, putting the money into another graphics card rather than into a big stinking whopping PSU. Hey, every penny counts!

So let me be blatantly frank here:

PSU1 supplies the motherboard with power and perhaps some of the IDE or SATA devices.

PSU2 supplies just the video cards and maybe IDE or SATA devices.

Now that should be clear enough. I see the jumper solution here so that one of the PSU's turns on or stays on all the time while the other one is ganged to the ON/OFF button. Of course, if they are both switching PSU's, you could manually turn them both off so that one of them is not running all the time. After all, what is the big sweat about flipping a switch? You have to bend over for 2 seconds and use your finger????

Now, let's take the scenario that BOTH PSU's are supplying power to the SATA and/OR IDE devices - will there be a conflict? Is this a dangerous thing to do considering there is probably some difference, even a 0.1V difference between to psu's?

What do you guys think? Hope I have been perfectly clear here and I don't want to mince words. Will two psu's work safely in tandem, together without blowing up the computer? Thanks,


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:53 am 
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Yes, you can safely run two PSU's together in a single system to provide power to various parts and pieces. But there's a couple things to keep in mind.

Number one, the PSU needs to be loaded. Letting a PSU just sit there running a couple of HDD's, an optical and some fans isn't going to load that PSU up very much. From what I've seen on multiple PSU reviews by sites that use a loading device, below 20% load and above 80% load is where you get the most erratic power readings.

Also, if you are loading both PSU's well, you've now doubled your chances for failure, doubled your troubleshooting chores when things go wrong, doubled the amount of space taken up by PSU's, doubled the noise and the heat and finally, doubled the wires in your case to obstruct airflow. You can go modular and remove that issue, but then modular's are typically multi-rail design's and you'll need to know how to load up the rails and not overload a single rail.

No to mention the fact that very few people actually need more than 750W in a system to begin with.

If you have the cabbage to rig up three high end video cards, you should also have the common sense and the cabbage to use a more reliable single PSU of sufficient size to power your rig. This isn't 2001 where people had valid reasons to rig dual PSU's to power a system. Too many PSU's out there that can handle the job if you're just patient enough to save the additional month needed to pay for a single, larger PSU to fit your power needs.

But if you want to do it just for bragging rights, well, go for it is all I can tell you.


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