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 Post subject: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticize
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:33 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:25 pm
Posts: 68
Location: VA
I need a new system..
used mostly for games and video editing.
Game examples - Battlefield, Skyrim, Guild Wars 2, Minecraft, upcoming Elder Scrolls Online, upcoming Star Citizen

here is what I am thinking of.. please criticize as much as possible.


Case: Fractal Design Define R4 with Window Black Pearl Silent ATX Mid Tower Case - Already Purchased
Motherboard: ASRock Z77 Extreme4 LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard = $119
Power: SeaSonic X Series X650 Gold ((SS-650KM Active PFC F3)) 650W ATX12V V2.3/EPS 12V V2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS GOLD = $149
Processor: Intel Core i5-3570K Ivy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4000 BX80637I53570K = $229
SSD: SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD128BW 2.5" 128GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) = $114
Memory: G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-1600C9D-16GXM = $159
Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO - CPU Cooler with 120 mm PWM Fan = $39
Paste: ARCTIC MX-4 (4g) Carbon-Based Thermal Compound = $10
Video: ???????? ..A little help here.. possibly Radeon R7 or R9 series.. too much too little?


I already have a keyboard, mouse, CD/DVD burner, OS (Win 7), 3TB Hard Drive and a monitor which is a Dell 24" Ultrasharp 2408wfp, 1920x1200

What am I missing?
Should I upgrade to an i7 over the i5?
Do I need a Pro version SSD?
Do I need more than 650 Watts?
Is the motherboard decent?


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:09 am 
Coppermine
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Few things:
  • Budget...?
  • Ivy Bridge is a generation old - the current version (Haswell) is similarly priced. Why not go with the i5 4670k? Also, ASRock has an Extreme4 mobo for Haswell
  • I realize Seasonic is a terrific brand, but that price for 650W seems excessive. Here's a Corsair 600W that's 1/3 the price
  • At $300, I would recommend the r9 280x...but it's not selling at its MSRP. The nVidia 770 is selling just over $300 and trades blows with the 280x. If you need more, go with a 780.
  • 250GB is the current sweet spot for SSDs (though I don't think that will be true by year-end). At $155, the Samsung 840 EVO 250GB is double the size for an extra $40.
  • Jeez, is it me or is the price of RAM increasing daily?!


Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:59 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:25 pm
Posts: 68
Location: VA
excellent suggestions..

I have been out of the game for a bit and have not kept up with the current advances in tech.

thanks for your reply


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:19 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:25 pm
Posts: 68
Location: VA
edited setup.. does this look better?


Case: Fractal Design Define R4 with Window Black Pearl Silent ATX Mid Tower Case - Already Purchased
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme4 LGA 1150 Intel Z87 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard = $144
Power: CORSAIR CXM series CX600M 600W ATX12V v2.3 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply = $69
Processor: Intel Core i5-4670K Haswell 3.4GHz LGA 1150 84W Quad-Core Desktop Processor = $239
SSD: SAMSUNG 840 EVO MZ-7TE250BW 2.5" 250GB SATA 6Gb/s MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) = $154
Memory: G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model F3-1600C9D-16GXM = $159
Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO - CPU Cooler with 120 mm PWM Fan = $39
Paste: ARCTIC MX-4 (4g) Carbon-Based Thermal Compound = $10
Video: ASUS GTX770-DC2OC-2GD5 GeForce GTX 770 2GB 256-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card = $329

Budget is around $1000 (give or take a couple hundred)
So this setup drops right in close to the sweet spot.

Would the r9 be worth the extra $100+ or waiting till the price drops?
also.. this Power is comparative to the SeaSonic? 600w is enough?

I'm trying for a setup that will handle those games at max settings.

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:30 am 
Smithfield
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Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
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The R9 might be, but at the moment, the GTX 770 is the current sweet spot card, all things considered. And 600W is more than enough.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:55 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:25 pm
Posts: 68
Location: VA
Everything I have listed works well together?

Am I missing anything small? Extra sata cable for example?

Good setup for games?


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:54 pm 
Smithfield
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No, everything looks like it'll work. And you don't have to worry about buying anything extra. You'll probably end up with extra.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:42 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:25 pm
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Location: VA
I assume that the Ripjaw memory (with fins) should fit in my case without any problem?


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:21 pm 
Smithfield
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Yes. Although if you can, find something without those heatsinks if its cheaper. They don't offer anything for the memory.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:08 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:25 pm
Posts: 68
Location: VA
I see this in the description of the memory...

"Compatible with Intel LGA1155/LGA1156 and AMD AM3/Llano/AM3+ platforms"


Will this work with the 1150 ?


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:00 pm 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5071
Memory is a standard. As long as it's at most DDR3-1600, you're fine.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:38 am 
8086
8086

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:25 pm
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Location: VA
Will the 600w be enough to add a 2nd card at some point down the road?

and possibly a closed loop water cooler for cpu (+ possibly video card)

Would like to go with the Radeon R9 290 if they make it down to around $400


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:47 pm 
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A second GTX-770... only some of the very best 600W will handle two in SLI. Those cards hit 230W each & many off-the shelf cards are actually overclocked so they'll pull even more power leaving 140W or usually less for the rest of the system.

But, it wasn't till I stepped up to the big 30" LCD @ 2560x1600 that I found SLI would even start to be beneficial. That 770 is a monster compared to my GTX-660 Ti, & while I can't run ultra on everything at 2560x1600, I can adjust settings to have a minimal or even no impact on visuals (unless paused & you review screenshots side by side), while still giving fluid game play in games like Skyrim (with High Res texture pack installed), Far Cry 3, & DeusEx: Human Revolution. Check out the Anandtech bench comparison http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/860?vs=829 The 770 only falls below 35fps in one of their tests- Crysis Warhead. Unless you're running multiple monitors with combined resolution 2560x1440 or higher, SLI / Crossfire really doesn't give you enough to worry about.

An i7 will give you a slight advantage in video encoding, but not sure it's $70 worth of advantage.

Ditch the G.Skill RAM (or as I like to call it "G.Kills"...) & go with 1.35V Crucial - my recommendation http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820148663 but 16GB won't do anything for you gaming wise, 16GB will only be useful in video editing / encoding, so you might consider an 8GB kit instead depending on how much editing you plan on doing. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820148662

Still IMO, an overall damned fine gaming build!


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:37 pm 
Coppermine
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Overall, Chaos and Latios have given excellent advice: totally agree with them.

To comment and answer some of your comments:

Quote:
I assume that the Ripjaw memory (with fins) should fit in my case without any problem?

It's tough to say, you really won't know until you try. But unless you have an aesthetic need for the fins, I would ditch the fins and go with standard RAM with either no heat spreader or a spreader without fins.

Quote:
Will the 600w be enough to add a 2nd card at some point down the road?

Most people like the idea of adding a second card later to boost GPU performance for newer, more demanding games, but actually never do it. By the time the need for a second card arrives, either newer single GPU options are a better alternative, or the GPU is discontinued. Not to mention the hassle of SLI. STILL...if you plan to add a second GPU, the 600W PSU will be iffy. If that's the case, move up to this Corsair 750W Gold. Reliable brand, sufficient power, and reasonable price - I like that combination!

Quote:
Would like to go with the Radeon R9 290 if they make it down to around $400

A bunch of people have the same sentiment. :)

Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:07 am 
8086
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preynolds2 wrote:
Will the 600w be enough to add a 2nd card at some point down the road?

and possibly a closed loop water cooler for cpu (+ possibly video card)

Would like to go with the Radeon R9 290 if they make it down to around $400


No it won't. For xfire or sli and a moderate loop you should be looking at the Seasonic 850 gold as minimum.

You can't have too much power supply.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:02 am 
Smithfield
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Based on what I measured off the wall in my various setups, a 600W power supply will do. It just has to be a really good model. The most power hungry computer I've had ate about 330W-350W on a typical task, well within the 50% envelope where PSUs are most efficient. And this was sporting two GTX 560 Ti's. So unless you're sporting the super flagship models, 600W in SLI should be fine. Similarly CrossFire as well.

And while I should be planning for the worst, the only time that'll really happen is if I leave Furmark and Prime 95 up for some reason or a power virus sneaks in (which... I haven't seen being a problem in ever).


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:55 am 
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Two GTX 770's by themselves pull a minimum 460 Watts (230 Watts each) in heavy gaming, and only at NVidia's reference speeds:
1046Base Clock (MHz)
1085Boost Clock (MHz)
Start overclocking (many cards come overclocked by the manufacturer), and you're bumping that power usage higher.

If you check out the anand bench I linked, you'll see that their test system pulled a staggering 384 Watts under Furmark with one stock 770, add another 230 Watts to that and you have........ wait for it........ 614 Watts. Add mild overclock (as is on the ASUS model OP linked) to a pair of the 770's, and you're bumping that wattage even higher to the point where it no longer takes Furmark to reach that 614 Watts. The only sub 700W PSU I would consider would be Seasonic 660W 80 Plus Platinum certified PSU But even then you're asking a PSU to pull 93% of its maximum rated power every time you game if running two 770's. That's running way too tight IMO.

But, I still say no need for SLI with a 770. Even at 5760x1200 (3 1920x1200 monitors - switch the 660Ti in my link to a Titan & you'll see 5760x1200 results), the 770 handles most games exceptionally well.

EDIT: BTW.... my gaming / editing rig can pull 543W at the wall per Kill-A-Watt meter (Averaged over 4 hours running Folding @ Home on GPU & CPU), that's with the CPU OC'd to 4.4Ghz & the 660 Ti OC'd to an impressive 1243 MHz boost. With everything at stock speed, system pulls about 330 Watts under full load.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:41 am 
Smithfield
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Anandtech's review of the GTX 780 Ti reported the 770 on their test setup drew 314W on Furmark and 529W in SLI ( http://www.anandtech.com/show/7492/the- ... -review/15 ). The 780 Ti adds in about 60W for a single setup and 120W in SLI. And this was on a Core i7-4960X @ 4.2GHz. However I don't consider Furmark to be an appropriate factor in the estimation of power as most real world tasks don't actually tax the GPU 100%. Just for kicks I threw up Crysis 2 on my rig (Core i5-4670K @ 4GHz and a GTX 670), and it never tipped over 230W.

And just for fun, I even ran a setup on eXtreme's Power Supply Calculator, and with the entire system under 90% load they recommend 640W even after 10% cap aging. 90% load usually does not happen unless you're doing it deliberately. Heck I found out under the most heavy load I could put on my computer that isn't Prime 95 + Furmark, it was dropping below their minimum selectable load.

So it basically boils down to: what are you going to run? If you're not going to run things that heavily tax your system, then they can be left out of the equation.


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:58 pm 
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Different testbeds = different system power consumption & unfortunately, no system details that I could find for the GPU Bench 2013, so can't even compare test systems :(

529watts for 770 SLI on i7-4960x @ 4.2GHz is pretty freakin impressive for Ivy-Bridge-E & 7xx series GPU's!!! I imagine a Haswell based system would be even lower. That also means that the 7xx series GPU's as a group seem to run further below NVidia's power spec than the 6xx series GPU's which are pretty close to Nvidia's rated power spec.

Still, if I were building new & anticipating SLI with 770's, I would go with an $80-$100 700W PSU or better, no sense pushing more than 70-75% of a PSU's power limit if you don't have to. Higher power usage = higher heat generation by PSU = higher system noise level. Then again, I do have a high-end 'silent' 750Watt PSU in my gaming rig, so if I need to go SLI Titan's to push two 30" LCD's @ 5120x1600 in next years games, I'm covered :P

Off to dig out my Kill-A-Watt & see what I get under Far Cry 3 @ ultimate settings :)


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 Post subject: Re: First Build from Scratch... yet again. Please Criticiz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:16 pm 
Smithfield
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chaosdsm wrote:
Higher power usage = higher heat generation by PSU = higher system noise level

I only see the first two correlate. The last one doesn't necessarily. Most PSUs now are bottom mounted and air either gets sucked in from the top or pulls air from the bottom, which doesn't affect the overall system temperature appreciably. Sure, the unit will get hot, but the chassis is tied down to a massive heat sink anyway: the case.

And a lot of PSUs out there that aren't hand picked by enthusiasts are pushed to that range anyway when working with a load. However, this is heavily dependent on a case-by-case basis. If your computer isn't doing anything most of the time, then the requirements can relax a little. If you're keeping your computer to do something constantly, then I would throw in something with a little more wattage to bring it to the 60% mark just so it's a little more efficient.

Besides, while yes, having a higher operating temperature affects a component's lifespan, it's even worse if you keep switching between high and low loads. But if we're going to play this game, we should recommend 1500W power supplies to every new build because the PSU is working very little.

Heck I threw in a 450W PSU in my latest build, I'm that confident given what I've measured in the past and my usage patterns that this is more than enough. The catch is that it's a very high quality PSU (a Seasonic 80+ gold model).

ANYWAY
OP, since we got sidetracked here. If you're considering adding another video card down the road, this has to be a short term thing. i.e., you don't have the money now, but you will say half a year. The problem is that if you wait say a year from now, the next generation will be out and the next one after that should be due very shortly, which is similar to the position we are in now.

GTX 670's, the last generation card, is very hard to find now. And the ones that are going through retail channels are either asking MSRP (~$430) or they're not going to be any cheaper than around 75% MSRP. You could go with eBay, but I find that a little more risky. And if you wait until the next-next generation, chances are the card in this performance category will be almost double than what you get now, and may be going for the same price, if not a little more expensive.

There's also an adage regarding multi video card setups: next gen performance with last gen features.

In other words: either get SLI/Crossfire now or within a few months, or don't get it at all.


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