Quantcast

Maximum PC

It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:54 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:22 am 
Coppermine
Coppermine
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:24 am
Posts: 609
Location: Home
A lot has changed!

Anyway, just had some questions about a few components. I did get a laptop about a year and a half ago running an i5 and 6gb of RAM so I've kept up somewhat with the times, but now it's time to build a new desktop.

So far I've done the research and decided to get an i5 3570K with the goal of overclocking to between 4.4 and 4.8 ghz, and i used to OC all the time and even doubled my laptop's 640M LE GPU core lol.

Picked a case and heatsink, and I've decided to get an MSI 780 GTX ti hoping I wont have to upgrade that for a few years. Now I'm looking at RAM, mobo, and PSU which is where I need some guidance.

I remember reading that overclocking RAM isn't necessary anymore since DDR3 came out and 1600 is the sweet spot for price and speed, since no one really sees much performance gain after 1600. Will I have enough CPU OC headroom with PC 1600 RAM? Also thinking 9-9-9-24 or 27 latency is good and reasonably priced? Anything like 8-8-8 would get expensive and I'm trying to not go crazy spending. I think 8gb should be about right. Can anyone confirm my logic? I saw some Team Vulcan ram for $76 with 9-9-9-24 1.5v. Is that a good price, or can i find similar specs without heatsinks if i dont need to OC and see the same performance for less money?

Lastly, I need an inexpensive mobo that will be stable for OC. Don't really need too many bells and whistles but some nice perks might be blutooth, at least 1 USB 3.0. Can't think of anything else that might not be standard, but my priority is stability (and speed?) for gaming. Also read that the CPU was listed at 77W and the GPU im looking at ran at a peak of like 275w give or take a couple. I'd like to know what PSU brands are good, efficient (I'm rather environmentally conscious so less power used is better!) and just good value, keeping in mind the overclocking goals.

Any tips on my last few items would be much appreciated!


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:10 am 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5014
Regarding RAM: Yes, 8GB is sufficient. At the moment, most games are still 32-bit and Windows 64-bit by default limit 32-bit programs to a maximum memory space of 2GB. i.e., if 32-bit programs use more than 2GB of RAM, it crashes because it thought it was out of memory. There's a way to compile a program so it takes all 4GB of 32-bit address space, but very few games were actually compiled this way. And even fewer games are 64-bit (and really need to be). Also the RAM you found is a good price for capacity.

Motherboards... all I can say is take your pick of any Z77 board from Gigabyte, ASRock, ASUS, or MSI. Just get the features you need.

As for power supply, anything by Seasonic or Corsair really.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:15 am 
Thunderbird
Thunderbird
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:17 pm
Posts: 793
Location: Phoenix, AZ
I will give you general tips with OCing in mind since you (wisely) want to do it.

OCing is shedding heat. Shed more heat, OC more as a rule. OCing also uses more current. More current, more OCing. More currant, more heat. At some point you exceed the capacity to increase voltage without risking damaging components (usually instabilities start to become evident before then but not always depending upon where you are increasing voltage) or the lines/traces can no longer carry/supply additional voltage so more becomes impossible (maximum reached).

Liquid cooling can shed more heat than air cooling.

3rd party thermal paste may get you a couple of degrees more cooling. May....

Copper is better than aluminum in transferring heat, but aluminum works pretty well.

Bigger case can contain and keep more warm air away from components before being shed.

Case can be designed to pull in cool air over components and shed warm air out and away form components really well or not so well. Some work better than others.

I prefer a bottom mounted PSU type case that draws PSU cooling air in from the bottom through a filtered entry and exhausts out the back without ever entering the case. I like fans at top rear and back for heat exhaust with the MB sitting somewhat down from here so heat can be at the top of the case without effecting MB components.

Bigger MB can draw heat away from components better. Bigger MB designed to carry more heat away from components with either more copper layering or heatpipes can shed more heat. MBs can have components that work more efficiently and stably at higher temps. This translates into higher costs. But also allows a significant boost in OCing ability of the CPU.

Intel's K series CPUs allow a greater and more automated OCing experience. Individual CPUs can vary greatly in how well they OC. Luck plays a part. Of course, if you are a small time system builder you can "bin" (test each CPU for its maximal OC potential and keep the best for yourself) each CPU.

Virtually all medium to high end GPUs are binned by the card makers. They pull the readily OCable ones and set them aside for OC editions of their cards. That means the ability to OC a non-OC edition card is probably rather low. So you are better off spending afew dollars more on the maker's OC edition GPU card. Most of the cards I have seen now are OCed to their maximum potential electrically so no further OC is possible.

OCing RAM is a waste except for the very wild gamers who are happy with an OC system that crashes every couple of hours. It is a waste because the CPU onboard memory controller can't take advantage of the higher speeds and the L1/L2/L3 caching algorithms do such a good job of having the needed code to fetch that RAM speeds haven't mattered much since DDR RAM.

But if you go with a 4000 series (Haswell, Socket 1150) CPU [which I would recommend] you should go with the 1,866MHz RAM. The CAS 9 RAM (timing) appears to be the sweet spot on this speed now. Lower CAS is somewhat quicker for video rendering, but insignificant for gaming.

Careful any heatsinks on RAM sticks does not block any 3rd party HSF or other cooling solution you choose.

Gaming can very readily get by with a 2 x 4Gb config. Select a MB with 4 slots and you can double the RAM down the road inexpensively IF it is ever needed.

Some HDDs are inefficient heat factories while others run cool.

As far as power, the power isn't used unless you demand it. And it sure is nice if you can demand it when you want it rather than hitting a limit. Efficiencies count a lot towards the environment (or the wallet), way more than an underpowered taxed system.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:14 am 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5014
Oh, and I forgot to mention something about power: how much do you need?

The emphasis is on the 12V rail (generally 35A minimum), but usually a 500W-600W power supply is really all you need for a single video card setup. As a reference point my setup, which has a i5-4670K @ 4.0GHz and a GeForce GTX 670 stays about 200-230W under load. Nominal load, like a game. As much as I'd like to calculate for Prime95+Furmark usage (both are burn-in programs that force the CPU and GPU respectively to 100%), you never really hit that mark anyway.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:35 am 
Coppermine
Coppermine
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:24 am
Posts: 609
Location: Home
Thanks for all the advice so far.

There's what I've got in my newegg wishlist so far:

Image


I read about ivy bridge vs haswell, and it seems that haswell runs hotter, uses more power, and doesn't overclock as well. Also means I have to spend more, but if I OC the ivy biridge even just modestly I make up for the performance difference. Also read that the 1155 motherboards are more expensive. IF I get a generous overclock from this CPU (and ive been reading that people with this cpu and heatsink are getting between 4.4 and 4.8 ghz) then I shouldn't need to upgrade for a while if I'm just gonna do some gaming, and maybe down the road dabble in creating my own music which I'd like to learn how to do. I wouldn't be doing much of that for a while. Maybe I'll upgrade when the chip after broadwell comes out and DDR4 is the standard and becomes inexpensive.

That ram is 9-9-9-24, but about 1866 RAM, will I be seeing a need for it with this ivy bridge at @~4.5GHz? Or will 1600 be sufficient? What will RAM dictate the speed of in games, how quickly textures load in or objects popping in or view distance?

I'll be getting an SSD for this, just to put some games and basics on, and use an external for media storage. Keeping it lean.

I was wondering how much wattage I'll need, and I'm least confident about looking for a PSU with ood 12v rails, esp if I might want to push the GPU a little bit in speeds. In the past I've always been ok with 500-600w PSU but my last one I think might have been just a touch too little as I wasn't as stable as I'd like to have been and I couldn't find the root of the instability from OCing. I listed my components here this time to see if anyone had suggestions on how much wattage my PSU should be rated for.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:18 am 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5014
As a data point, even though Haswell consumes more power than Ivy Bridge and is hotter, clock for clock Haswell beats Ivy Bridge so over time they're mostly equal. Also the TDP for Haswell is 84W versus 77W on Ivy Bridge which makes me believe that won't get you that much more headroom for overclocking anyway. Sandy Bridge was 85W and those happily got to 4.6GHz-4.8GHz.

Anyway, my PSU calculator (extreme's power supply calculator pro :3 ) for the following configuration:
  • i7-3770 @ 4.8GHz 1.4 V 100% utilization
  • GeForce GTX 780Ti (this is for stock speeds)
  • 2 DDR3 modules
  • Keyboard and mouse only (Each USB device will do at worst 2.5W for USB 2.0 and 5W for USB 3.0)
  • 3 120mm fans
  • 90% system load
  • 10% capacitor aging (nominal computer use over a few years)
Comes out to: 532W, 39.2A@12V recommended (other metrics included are 5.5A@3.3V and 8.6A@5V recommended)

However this is at the worst case scenario (you decide to run Prime95 and Furmark at the same time). I found out that one of my previous builds running Crysis uses less than what was recommended at 60% system load, which is the lowest they'll go.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:11 pm 
Coppermine
Coppermine
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:24 am
Posts: 609
Location: Home
I didn't know PSU calculators existed! That's awesome, thanks a lot. Looks like 550w-600w would be a good save headroom point.

As for Haswell, since you seem rather passionate about getting the newer chip since I may still apparently be able to overclock it almost, but not quite, as much and there is more longevity to it, let me price out the difference. After some google searching, it seems the only chipset option for the Mobo would be z87 for overclocking, is that correct? Is there a newer or less expensive chipset that supports overclocking a haswell at this point?

The CPU is only $10 more for haswell, and a good quality overclocking mobo seems to be about the same... so i guess financially it makes sense to go with a haswell after all.

As far as RAM goes, you mentioned at least 1833... I was reading here that the sweet spot would be about 2400, but the impression I got was that with a dedicated GPU card, I wouldn't need more than 1833 since I wouldn't see a difference unless I was using integrated graphics. Is that correct? If so, maybe I could find a pair of 4gb 1833 CAS 8.

So I've reworked my lineup to this: Image


What are some good, efficient, stable brands of PSUs to power this list? From the info so far, I'd want something betwen 550w and 600w with strong 12v rails, at least 35A? What are reliable brands? I've used Antec a lot in the past, and my last one was an "HE" model but I forget the wattage. Probably between 500 and 550w..


Last edited by Xigz on Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:15 pm 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5014
My Haswell vs. Ivy Bridge post is a data point, it's really up to you what you want. I'd also recommend a Cooler Master Hyper 212 for cooling, if only because they have one of the best price/performance ratios. The Noctua cooler no doubt will be better, but not by the extra $50 you'll be paying for it.

As for power supplies, the only brand I trust is Seasonic as they're the go-to OEM for other brands (a lot of other brands will buy OEM PSUs and rebadge them). However I will consider Corsair, they have a really good rep as well. Also if you want, there's a free version of the power supply calculator I use at http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psuc ... orlite.jsp . The only things that are missing are the amperage you need per rail and some other things.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:04 pm 
Coppermine
Coppermine
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:24 am
Posts: 609
Location: Home
The only time i'll need more than a single 12v rail is for sli right? So I just need a single but strong 12v rail 40A or more i'm guessing?


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:22 am 
Coppermine
Coppermine
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:24 am
Posts: 609
Location: Home
LatiosXT wrote:
My Haswell vs. Ivy Bridge post is a data point, it's really up to you what you want. I'd also recommend a Cooler Master Hyper 212 for cooling, if only because they have one of the best price/performance ratios. The Noctua cooler no doubt will be better, but not by the extra $50 you'll be paying for it.

As for power supplies, the only brand I trust is Seasonic as they're the go-to OEM for other brands (a lot of other brands will buy OEM PSUs and rebadge them). However I will consider Corsair, they have a really good rep as well. Also if you want, there's a free version of the power supply calculator I use at http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psuc ... orlite.jsp . The only things that are missing are the amperage you need per rail and some other things.



This this will do the trick? Also since you've used SeaSonics a lot, do you think this unit would produce a lot of noise under load during a game?


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:09 am 
Smithfield
Smithfield

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 5014
I've never had a power supply in any of my builds be noticeably loud. It's usually the case fans or video card that gets loud.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:33 pm 
Coppermine
Coppermine
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:24 am
Posts: 609
Location: Home
LatiosXT wrote:
I've never had a power supply in any of my builds be noticeably loud. It's usually the case fans or video card that gets loud.


Awesome, then I've completed my build! I picked all quiet parts - cooler master case with large fans, the msi 780 gtx ti is supposed to be real quiet according to a professional reviewer, etc.

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2B1M1

Thanks for all the tips everyone!


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:49 pm 
Thunderbird
Thunderbird
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:17 pm
Posts: 793
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Xigz wrote:
.... What are some good, efficient, stable brands of PSUs to power this list? From the info so far, I'd want something betwen 550w and 600w with strong 12v rails, at least 35A? What are reliable brands? I've used Antec a lot in the past, and my last one was an "HE" model but I forget the wattage. Probably between 500 and 550w..

Best buy for dollar is probably a 620W Seasonic S12II.


Top
  Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finally building new desktop after 6.5 years...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:36 pm 
Coppermine
Coppermine
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:24 am
Posts: 609
Location: Home
tempting.. but the environmentalist in me wants me to stay with the gold certification and also i do like modular cabling. :roll: :lol:


Top
  Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group