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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:46 am 
Coppermine
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I don't need anyone to back up my claim. If photographer/menuez found my artilce to be benificial, more power to him/her... the same applies to everyone else. I'm pleased to know that there is some appreciation being displayed as my efforts have been rather exhausting. This is what this forum is all about, ultimately picking up on tips and tricks, bits and pieces. Helping eachother make the best decision possible. It's not necessarily a cut-throat debate, everything is based on opinions and to allow others to have them. If test's are proven with benchmarks then the results will bear some significance VS word of mouth. I have learned alot from this thread. RAM is a very touchy topic to properly, and accurately, provide results. There are dozens of factors that affect the final outcome. To name a few...Look at the pagefile between photo and mine, both systems are two gig, i'm asuming photo has windows xp pro as well. Should we benchmark against eachother, one would argue foulplay due to the microscopic differences in the numbers. In saying that, what would be an appropriate compromise be between the two sets of figures? Moreover, in sticking with benchmark prep... if I restarted my system and photo didn't do the same. That too will be considered foul because ram/cache had not been flushed. No two systems are completely identical, period. So how about a windows on windows benchmark (same hard disk, different partitions)? In this case, again theres a performance difference where the os resides on the HD. Data transfer at the center, innermost portion of the disk is theoretically slower vs the outermost edge. SMT machines that make mainboards are not 100% error free nor accurate. There are too many factors to consider and to compromise when doing these tests. Benchmarks will be benchmarks, and ditto for the marketing hype. In closing, I'd like to provide my summary between the 1 gb vs 2 gb systems. LOL

Just keep this thought in mind, on a one gig system when playing Doom3 or Halflife 2. Without a doubt, there is disk thrashing (a virtual ram dependency), even with the ultra super highest maximus quality 1 gig stick o' ram....90 percent of those sticks are always a slower CAS latency as opposed to what you will find with any two individual 512 sticks of ultra super highest maximus quality ram.

Furthermore with the to gig setup, there is hardly any disk thrashing at all, this is until games significantly become larger is size, more so for the 1Gb. Both systems come very very close in numbers on the 32 bit windows OS..with the one gig edging out the two gb.
With the WIN 64 bit operating system, the clear winner is the two gig ( 512 or 1 gb denominations, but 2 gb in size), and it's not even a close call.

That's all the there is to it! Thumbs up for 2 gig on the 64 bit os! :wink:

Dave


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:15 am 
Willamette
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EOS1DS wrote:
My VAIO desktop PCV RZ 46G came with one gigabyte of memory which suits my system well for some editing software. However, when it comes to using Photoshop CS, the hard disk gets overworked, and has left me having to wait considerably.


You people are using one program, *cough*, Adobe Photoshop CS to back these claims that EVERYONE MUST HAVE 2 GIG of RAM! The point is mute. I think what your both missing is that alot of people do not need 2 gig of RAM. What me and One are trying to do is determine Techno's needs and offer him the best advice that can save him money.

Alot of people do not use adobe's memory hog applications. For those that do, I will start reccomending 2 gig of RAM. Most programs don't spike your pagefile into the 2 gig range. Sounds like you need more RAM. As a matter of fact, (this goes for daveyd and e-whatever) I can safely reccomend 4 gigs of RAM. Why you guys are on here bashing me for not reccomending it to techno, when it's apparent YOU guys need atleast 4 gig and only have 2, lol. Jesus, talk about hypocrites.

One serious question here guys...9 out of 10 Graphic Designers/Video Editors/3d renderers NEED monster systems to run the programs they use ANYWAYS. Most of the times the programs actually require atleast a gig of RAM with 2 being preferred anyways. So why state the obvious? If Techno was doing that kind of thing, I am pretty sure he would have made it clear, or not even posted this thread in the first place. There is no need for you guys to pimp Photoshop CS anymore. So you figured a way to spike your pagefile, great work. Techno still dosen't need 2 gig of RAM.

We aren't referring to ALL people here. We are reffering to Technoweenie only and what is best for him. (by god techno, if your using PS:CS, please stick w/ 2 gig! lol so that daveyd dosen't have a brain hemorrhage :P )


Quote:
What makes you think that you're going reproduce daveyd's pagefile with only one gig of memory?


I think the question should be, what makes me think I am going to reproduce daveyd's memory with only one gig of memory, which is something I never claimed I could do. His pagefile would be very easy to reproduce (common windows knowledge). All I need to do is set it to 2 gig and load photoshop cs apparently.

Quote:
Are you're having difficulty reading his post? Why don't you have Photoshop running?
Actually, if you read my post you will notice I had some very impressive items running. Doom3, HL-2...is it my system that makes my pagefile so low? (Man-8 mb buffer hehe) Is it my high quality RAM? Dunno.

You want to know what I think it is? Photoshop CS! Bingo, we have a winner! The winner has been named for shitty memory allocation in an application and it's PS:CS! :roll:


Quote:
No it's not. I just upgraded my ram to two gigabytes. However, you're making a fool out of yourself. The "quality" of your replies have little significance if you can't give him the numbers.


Actually, your the fool. Why only 2 gig? If your pagefile is spiking to almost 2 gig, and you have 2 gig of RAM, it's readily apparent you need 4 gig. Sounds like you don't know what your doing...

Quote:
You tell techno this:


Quote:
And, when you need more, buy another gig of the high performance RAM. So instead of having two gigs of crap, you'll have two gigs of stuff that is much faster.


Quote:
His crucial is "value" RAM, but it has great performance, it's quality RAM.


I DID say all that, your right. But please read the above two items again. Carefully... I would much rather have two sticks of Crucial Ballistix Tracers in Dual Channel then PQI single channel, high latency crap. So, I will keep reccomending high quality RAM that 9/10 out of ten wont fail my customers and will remain dependable. It's all about quality.

And that crucial is good quality RAM. Well, it's actually corsair now that he's corrected himself.


Quote:
make up your mind, you're confusing everyone.


I think I have been pretty clear. But I'll simplify this for you, cuz' your special :P :

Techno dosen't need two gigs of RAM. However, you and daveyd do NEED atleast 4 gigs of RAM, which your not running at this moment. Instead of focusing on what others "need" so bad, you should maybe take a look at what you need first, hmmm. Techno has good RAM. even though it's corsair and not crucial, still good. I would say keep one gig and send three back and use the money to buy something like a nice videocard.


Quote:
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance. I find that nothing in the world is more dangerous than conscientious stupidity.
Which is why your completely ignorant to the facts of what you NEED. Buddy, you NEED 4 gigs of RAM. Now that I have told you, since it's apparent that you were not aware of it, please tell daveyd so he can also get 4 gigs of RAM. And if you call Sony technical support, hell, they will even tell you how to install it.

Quote:
Is this what you're trying to reproduce?

that's it! there is a faithful reproduction of PS:CS right there in front of my eyes! Excellent work!


Quote:
Let's see if we can provide some benchmarks with one gig vs. two


LOL! I am taking a long shot here, but I am betting your benchie of choice would be none other then...Photoshop CS! Ding ding! Why would you want to Benchmark one gig vs two anyways? If you need two gig, you need it. You don't know what your talking about. Benchmarks are used to measure performances, not needs. Now benching 2 gigs of Crucial Tracers to 2 gigs of Hyper X TCCD's...that would be worth benchmarking.

Just so you know, this is the definition of benchmark:
A measurement or standard that serves as a point of reference by which process performance is measured.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:41 am 
Willamette
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daveyd wrote:
Just keep this thought in mind, on a one gig system when playing Doom3 or Halflife 2. Without a doubt, there is disk thrashing (a virtual ram dependency),


On your hdd alone, Doom3 is a 1.5 GB game, not accounting for loads off the cd into RAM and your pagefile for textures, maps, entitys, save games, etc. which can rocket it to over 2 gig. Even with 2 gig of RAM, your going to have disk thrashing. Probobly a little less then with just one gig, sure. But to invalidate your point (you knew I had too):

I had Doom3, Half-Life 2 running, and a bunch of other progs- see here.

My total memory is 1048040
Available was 446608
My pagefile was only at 468 mb out of 2459 total to memory

Roughly ONLY 19% of total system memory was allocated with the two biggest monster games running and several applications was being USED....LOL, look at the picture. My damn page file never spiked above even a single percentage point. The line is straight as an arrow.

Your point is invalid. Unless your running Photoshop CS, you have no more business here with your lies. The general user needs two gig of RAM as much as they need a hole in thier head.

And back to Photoshop CS, even there, your prized program, you still don't know what your doing. You only have 2 gigs of RAM on a program that ovbiously requires 4 gigs. Apparently, a 1.91 GB pagefile is perfectly acceptable for you. Techno, is this really where your accepting advice from? :shock:



Quote:
Furthermore with the to gig setup, there is hardly any disk thrashing at all, this is until games significantly become larger is size, more so for the 1Gb.


Absolutely not true. Hell, your pagefile was @ 1.91 GB, but I guess you don't call that disk thrashing....


Quote:
even with the ultra super highest maximus quality 1 gig stick o' ram....90 percent of those sticks are always a slower CAS latency as opposed to what you will find with any two individual 512 sticks of ultra super highest maximus quality ram.


Nope. Wrong again. One stick of ram vs 2 invidual sticks and the performance difference is negligible, at best-unless comparing single channel to dual channel.

You want two sticks for Dual Channel anyways, which shows performance gains of close to 100%...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:49 am 
Little Foot
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I'm just gonna get my feet wet here...

If you had a choice between Crucial Ballistix and Corsair XMS, which one would you choose (based on stability, quality, and fasteness)?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:07 pm 
Coppermine
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Quote:
On your hdd alone, Doom3 is a 1.5 GB game, not accounting for loads off the cd into RAM and your pagefile for textures, maps, entitys, save games, etc. which can rocket it to over 2 gig. Even with 2 gig of RAM, your going to have disk thrashing. Probobly a little less then with just one gig, sure. But to invalidate your point (you knew I had too):


I never said that Doom 3 is loaded on my hard drive, here's some bionic glasses. 8) Refer back...Now stand up in front of the class, and enunciate with diction so that everyone else can hear what i'm talking about. Turn off the Steam Engine in your system tray first. It's blowin smoke again. CHOOO! CHOOOO! Now go ahead read to the class. LOL :P


Quote:
I had Doom3, Half-Life 2 running, and a bunch of other progs- see here.


The only thing that everyone in this forum could truly see running, is the steam engine, zone alarm, and windows task manager. Do us all a favor and uncheck "auto hide the taskbar" so we can visualize what lay beneath. "I don't think you're being kosher"...sound familiar?

Tell us how you are actually playing doom 3, hl2, editing in paint shop pro 9, and writing a letter to mom "all at the same friggen time." We all know that's not possible, but if you insist you're professionally handicapped, i'll throw in an additional 5 points just cause you're being talented.
hello did one fly over the kookoo's nest again?


Quote:
My total memory is 1048040
Available was 446608
My pagefile was only at 468 mb out of 2459 total to memory


Whoa! churning away with that super high-quality balistiX 1 gig o ram! half the stuff on standby...i'm impressed! ROTFLMAO! :P

Quote:
Roughly ONLY 19% of total system memory was allocated with the two biggest monster games running and several applications was being USED....LOL, look at the picture. My damn page file never spiked above even a single percentage point. The line is straight as an arrow.


wonder why you're page file isn't going anywhere....hmmmm????

Quote:
Your point is invalid. Unless your running Photoshop CS, you have no more business here with your lies. The general user needs two gig of RAM as much as they need a hole in thier head.


face the class again john boy, say it out loud, you told techno his ram was "crappy," now today it's good quality? CHOOOO! CHOOOO! :idea:

Who's got the empty space in between their ears? Stand in the corner, you're on time out. This is becoming maximum BS. I've heard the same thing fly over your head...over and over again.

At least you made techno happy...five more points....just for having Alzheimers disease. LOL :P



Quote:
And back to Photoshop CS, even there, your prized program, you still don't know what your doing. You only have 2 gigs of RAM on a program that ovbiously requires 4 gigs. Apparently, a 1.91 GB pagefile is perfectly acceptable for you. Techno, is this really where your accepting advice from?


another one, CHOOOO! CHOOO! there's 4 gig...now take ten steps back. Good boy. pretty soon you'll be graduating from special ed, and i'll give you your certificate :D


Quote:
Absolutely not true. Hell, your pagefile was @ 1.91 GB, but I guess you don't call that disk thrashing....


Two more steps and recess will be in a few minutes...i see you're starting to like the two gig thing.... techno, pass instigator the other two sticks of 512 "crappy ram" so he can use it in his system. he's only got one gig of some extremely high class ultra super highest maximus ballistiX quality RAM.

Quick before he starts running "two of the most CPU, graphic and memory intensive games known to mankind." LOL

Instigator, they're not plug and play...HAHAHAHA!!! :P Turn off your pc first before you blow the real expensive stuff. ROTFLMAO!!! :P
***********************************************************

EDIT: Instigator, if you really paid attention to what my resources are and the details i've written, before you blab off, all of this could have been prevented. Since you want to pass as a teenager, that's the way you'd be treated.
Remember how all of this happened at the onset. Reflect back to page one with your comments. Both of us were making our own benificial suggestions. If mine are not suited to your own likings, than pass it off will you. Had techno found things to be moot or undesirable he would have given an indication.
Don't start with both feet in your mouth, you wouldn't have anything to stand on. And when I say that, i'm not trying to defame you. Consider the the feelings of others before you go on to say their stuff is crap. Personally I didn't find that amusing, it was rather offensive. Moreover, if you plan to carry that name, be prepared for what comes, and you'd better do some research, as I stated earlier to justify your post.

My CAS latency benchmarks were simply to give techno some insight, at his request. He later wanted to know about one gig vs two, and I gave a balanced decision. It is clear on the 32 bit OS, that one gig of the same CAS latency as the two gig, when tested, the one gig of ram won by a hair, but it was the exact opposite with the 64 bit OS. I know what bench testing entails, and it's hard to be completely straight forward about it, as indicated in my discussion.

Have a great week, and enjoy! Thank you, I'm out.

Dave


Last edited by daveyd on Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:34 pm 
Contributing Writer
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unlucky commissar wrote:
I'm just gonna get my feet wet here...

If you had a choice between Crucial Ballistix and Corsair XMS, which one would you choose (based on stability, quality, and fasteness)?


No problem, this thread is in dire need of a hijack.

The choice between the two above would depend on the specific model number as well as what platform they were going in. For instance, on an A64 system I would take the Corsair XMS PC3200 that uses Samsung TCCDs over the Ballistix, but in an Intel setup, I would likely favor a higher rated PC4000 Ballistix.

There are a few varieties/speeds of XMS, and two different flavors of DDR Ballistix (PC3200 and PC4000 - DDR2 not included). Speaking strictly on the stability and quality aspect of your inquiry, you could flip a coin choose correctly, whichever side it landed. Both Crucial and Corsair are top tier brands.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:11 pm 
Willamette
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Quote:
I never said that Doom 3 is loaded on my hard drive, here's some bionic glasses. 8) Refer back...Now stand up in front of the class, and enunciate with diction so that everyone else can hear what i'm talking about. Turn off the Steam Engine in your system tray first. It's blowin smoke again. CHOOO! CHOOOO! Now go ahead read to the class. LOL :P


Oh lord, I do feel I have caused your insanity. It's understandable. When your so sure your right...then pwnage comes along and takes it all away. I feel your pain bro...Anyways, I did say your HDD, but unless your retarded...? you would understand I was making a general statement. I'll simplify for you (again). It's sad that you have been reduced to nit-picking, but oh well:

On A hdd alone, Doom3 is a 1.5 GB game, not accounting for loads off the cd into RAM and your pagefile for textures, maps, entitys, save games, etc. which can rocket it to over 2 gig. Even with 2 gig of RAM, your going to have disk thrashing.

Quote:
The only thing that everyone in this forum could truly see running, is the steam engine, zone alarm, and windows task manager. Do us all a favor and uncheck "auto hide the taskbar" so we can visualize what lay beneath. "I don't think you're being kosher"...sound familiar?


Are you blind? Seriously. If you look at the bottom of the screen near the clock you'll see HL-2, Doom3, Outlook, PSP, etc. Those progs were running, but I'll redo it to further prove your illogic:

New screenshot, with ALL of my progs showing loaded into memory and Half-Life 2 with enviornment fully loaded, all at the bottom of the screen...

And I am STILL only 529 MB out of 2459 with a nearly straight line on the Page File usage History...STILL only 21% usage of TOTAL system memory, a 2% increase from last time (because I had MSI live monitor and Norton Password Manager loaded). Oh no! I don't have 2 gig of RAM but I am able to run all these HUGE programs! And still have 419140 MEGS of physical RAM still left over! Imagine that...Guess I really need to get my 2 gig of RAM! I really NEED it!

Quote:
Tell us how you are actually playing doom 3, hl2, editing in paint shop pro 9, and writing a letter to mom "all at the same friggen time."


Man, you must have one sucky system. I had doom3 loaded and PLAYING Half-Life 2 ALL at the same time. I used a nifty thing called ALT+TAB to switch between the different games and apps. System didn't crash, everything fine. and guess what..? My page file never went above 580MB as my page file usage history PROVES. Face it chump. Your myth of "oh r0x0rz j00 m45T haV3 2 g1g of RAM, ev4ry0n3 m45T haV3 2g1g of r4M, g0 g3T 2 g1g 0f R4m r1g4T n0wz3rs" is simply false.

Like I keep telling your numbskull, you have Photoshop CS as the culprit in draining away all of your 2 gig of memory. nothing else. You cannot reccomend two gigs of memory to EVERYONE simply based on Photoshop CS, tard. We are talking about general users here.

Quote:
Whoa! churning away with that super high-quality balistiX 1 gig o ram! half the stuff on standby...i'm impressed! ROTFLMAO! :P


:P Ballistix r0x0rZ! Damn right!

Quote:
wonder why you're page file isn't going anywhere....hmmmm????


LOL. Do you even know what a pagefile is? Apparently mine wasn't needed because my programs weren't using it. They were still using the majority of my physical RAM...duh.

Quote:
another one, CHOOOO! CHOOO! there's 4 gig...now take ten steps back. Good boy. pretty soon you'll be graduating from special ed, and i'll give you your certificate :D


So with your uber 1.91 GB pagefile and 2 gig of (leaky) RAM and running photoshop CS your denying the fact that you don't need 4 gig RAM? That's what I thought...


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:09 pm 
Coppermine
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Quote:
On A hdd alone, Doom3 is a 1.5 GB game, not accounting for loads off the cd into RAM and your pagefile for textures, maps, entitys, save games, etc. which can rocket it to over 2 gig. Even with 2 gig of RAM, your going to have disk thrashing.


with the two gig setup, there is hardly any disk thrashing at all.

did i say none at all? I'm not nitpicking i understand what you're saying.


Quote:
Are you blind? Seriously. If you look at the bottom of the screen near the clock you'll see HL-2, Doom3, Outlook, PSP, etc. Those progs were running, but I'll redo it to further prove your illogic:


they are on standby, running is when you've got something scheduled in the background, or physically playing, edtitng, what not. Not when you closed the app to the taskbar. Everything on your right side is running, do you not agree?

yes HL2 doom 3 is loaded. Again are you taxing the system with gameplay, or letting it sit idle? How would you get any stress PF result if you were not doing anything to it but letting it sitting idle?


Quote:
Man, you must have one sucky system.


If you insist that you know it better than I do, than that's fine.
It's 3.4 Ghz P4EE, im sorry its not an athlon system.



Quote:
Like I keep telling your numbskull, you have Photoshop CS as the culprit in draining away all of your 2 gig of memory. nothing else. You cannot reccomend two gigs of memory to EVERYONE simply based on Photoshop CS, tard. We are talking about general users here.


it's not draining my system, there was still 2 gigs left, why dont you read?

I stressed the shit out of it to show you what I pulled. You asked for a clean readout with the taskbar in place, and photo gave it to you. I'm quite sure that he too stressed the shit out of his rig to get those readings. nevertheless another 2 gig pagefile still remained, am I right?

Quote:
Whoa! churning away with that super high-quality balistiX 1 gig o ram! half the stuff on standby...i'm impressed! ROTFLMAO! :P



Quote:
wonder why you're page file isn't going anywhere....hmmmm????


exactly, it's not going anywhere sitting idle, render something and check it out.

Quote:
LOL. Do you even know what a pagefile is? Apparently mine wasn't needed because my programs weren't using it. They were still using the majority of my physical RAM...duh.


Your system doesn't run without a pagefile. You must have a pagefile on the boot partition to be able to have a memory dump. For a complete memory dump, the pagefile has to be as big as the amount RAM you have. Keeping the pagefile in a contiguous area of the hard disk makes for faster access to the paging file.

Yes thats right I have 4 gig total, pagefile and ram. Four times you've indicated that I only have a 2 GB. What's is in your head?

Quote:
So with your uber 1.91 GB pagefile and 2 gig of (leaky) RAM and running photoshop CS your denying the fact that you don't need 4 gig RAM? That's what I thought...


I don't need 4 gigs of physical RAM. If I had that much RAM, again for a complete memory dump, I can tailor the page file to double it @ 8Gb. With 8gig you could create a rough draft image in photoshop the size of your bedroom wall, or a billboard for that matter. I don't need that much of RAM.

leaky ram, you get what you think...


Last edited by daveyd on Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:54 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:25 pm 
Little Foot
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*pulls both guysapart before fists start flying*

Look, guys, lets just calm down. No need to start calling people names and all. If you're accusing someone, don't need to be harsh about it.

Just my $0.02

Don't forget, I'm a commissar... I live for this :D


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:54 am 
Coppermine
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unlucky commissar wrote:
*pulls both guysapart before fists start flying*

Look, guys, lets just calm down. No need to start calling people names and all. If you're accusing someone, don't need to be harsh about it.

Just my $0.02

Don't forget, I'm a commissar... I live for this :D


Thanks for the clarification, my apologies.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:26 pm 
Willamette
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daveyd wrote:

with the two gig setup, there is hardly any disk thrashing at all.

did i say none at all? I'm not nitpicking i understand what you're saying.


Right. Unless your running photoshop CS. Even MPC states it "may" be bloatware. You cannot state that everyone should have 2 gig RAM simply based on your results alone. My whole point from the beggining is that Techno didn't need 2 gig RAM. You argued that...

Quote:
they are on standby, running is when you've got something scheduled in the background, or physically playing, edtitng, what not. Not when you closed the app to the taskbar. Everything on your right side is running, do you not agree?


Everything on the right side is running of course. that IS the taskbar too silly. Just because an app was closed to a taskbar dosen't mean the program isn't running...insane. Doom3 nor HL-2 minimizes to the right side of the taskbar, but just because they don't, dosen't mean they aren't running.

Quote:
yes HL-2 and doom is loaded. Again are you taxing the system with gameplay, or letting it sit idle? How would you get any stress PF result if you were not doing anything to it but letting it sitting idle?


I was simply showing you my pagefile. When an app or prog is loaded it is placed into available RAM as needed and the pagefile. I was showing you that with those two monster games loaded and tons of other apps, my pagefile NEVERspiked the way yours did. Point: I don't need 2 gigs of RAM as you state Techno does. I am sure he won't have both games and tons of other apps loaded into memory at once. Even if he does, my screenshot proves that 1 gig of quality RAM will handle it just fine, thereby nullifying your comments. And for the record, HL-2 was loaded and playing, but you have to fast switch to the desktop to load taskmanager and get a screenie.








Quote:
it's not draining my system, there was still 2 gigs left, why dont you read?


^You say this...

Then you say this:

Quote:
I stressed the shit out of it


So apparently it WAS draining something... No. What you did was try to prove a point. To try and reinforce your myth that everyone MUST HAVE, hell, NEEDS 2 gig of RAM. Now don't try to back out and say you were just showing me stress test. Your ridicoulous. Stick to your guns and just admit you are wrong for reccomending the two gigs of RAM. Like I have said, sure, he might need that (if he is running photoshop CS....)

Techno dosen't need 2 gig of RAM. If he decides to keep 2 gig, excellent. I am just saying and have been saying he dosen't need it. The rest is up to him.

Quote:
Yes thats right I have 4 gig total, pagefile and ram. Four times you've indicated that I only have a 2 GB.


Apparently your missing the whole point. I'll refresh. Your screenie showed you @ a 1.91 GB pagefile, which meant you were using your hard drive because you ran out of physical RAM...Hold on, I'm not done...So that means your 2 gig of PHYSICAL ram simply wasn't sufficient if your pagefile is spiked like that. You need 4 gig of PHYSICAL RAM + YOUR PAGEFILE.

Now this is the moment I have been waiting for...go ahead...tell me you don't need 2 gigs of RAM, tell me you were just doing a stress test, c'mon...



Quote:
I don't need 4 gigs of physical RAM. If I had that much RAM, again for a complete memory dump, I can tailor the page file to double it @ 8Gb.


Your killing me!@! Isn't that your whole point!? This whole time you have been speaking out against disk thrashing (a.k.a-accessing a pagefile) and now you point out that instead of using physical RAM you could just create an 8gb pagefile!?! WTF dood! Why?! Accessing physical RAM is WAY better anyday of the week then accessing a fragmented ass pagefile...

Eitherway you slice it, with that image you showed, you need 4 gig of PHYSICAL RAM + a PAGEFILE because you didn't have enough physical RAM to cover it. And if you say you do have enough physical RAM-#1-why is your pagefile @ 1.91 GB #2-Why do YOU need and reccomend 2 gig of RAM daveyd? Because it's readily apparent if you weren't doing a stress test, you probobly wouldn't even need 2 gig.

Which leads me back to the whole point of almost all people (general users) are just peachy with one gig of RAM. Which leads me back to One4ya2c's whole point, and just about anyone else with a sane state of mind.

Will 1 gig be enough for the general user even 1-2 years from now. Almost for sure NOT. For now. Yes. (Hell I hook up cable modems and people only have 32mb STILL this day, lol)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:07 pm 
8086
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People have different needs for RAM, PERIOD.
INSTIGATOR, IF YOU'RE STILL STUCK ON ONE GIG...WHO REALLY CARES?

instigatorX says:
Quote:
Everything on the right side is running of course. that IS the taskbar too silly.


Little does he know that's his system tray. hmmmmmm...

You had to prove your stupidity by making the word "IS" capitalized.
I don't use my computer everyday...and you're telling us that you install cable modems???

Forget the RAM issue, I highly suggest that you click on the link below and read it thoroughly.
http://www.pcworld.com/howto/article/0,aid,73163,00.asp

instigatorX says:
Quote:
Unless your running photoshop CS. Even MPC states it "may" be bloatware.
blah blah blah. If you want someone to believe you, next time put a link to your reference. I'd be calling tech support if you came to install my cable modem.

How can you deduce Photoshop CS MAY be bloatware? Have you ever tried using the program? It's available..why don't you go download it and see for yourself?

Quote:
I was showing you that with those two monster games loaded and tons of other apps, my pagefile NEVERspiked the way yours did.


If you have not edited a 250MB image in Adobe Photoshop CS, you will never have a clue what's going on. [/b] Prove that statement wrong!!

How can you come in here and justify what someone needs with regard to RAM, or tell anyone about Photoshop if you can't figure out the basics? task bar, and system tray OR have never used Photoshop CS? It's quite apparent because you're so surprised about a pagefile spike. Why don't you ask how I got the spike?

Download photoshop, pick any decent 11 meg tiff or jpeg, and convert it to 10,000 X 10,000 or 250 meg, and render the following filters, then apply them.
A. neon glow
B. stained glass
and record your highest pagefile while rendering.


Moreover, don't come back and tell me how much ram I need or program I must have, or anything about my computer, I never asked for your input, nor do i need your nonsense..

REALLY>>>with a name like instigatorX, must you be as dumb as you appear?
(Hell I hook up cable modems and people only have 32mb STILL this day, lol)


:idea: Go back and tell your customers where the taskbar really IS on your computer, while you're at it, show them where's the system tray. :idea:

This issue was over two days ago and you're still looking for a debate? what's wrong with you??

In all honesty, I can't help but wonder about the various turpitudes of modern society. The "quality" of your replies are rather whimsicle, and has little to be desired. Should you approach to prove otherwise, i'd feel more than welcomed to entertain you.

Sincerely,

R. Menuez


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:41 am 
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EOS1DS wrote:
[
If you have not edited a 250MB image in Adobe Photoshop CS, you will never have a clue what's going on. [/b]

Download photoshop, pick any decent 11 meg tiff or jpeg, and convert it to 10,000 X 10,000 or 250 meg, and render the following filters, then apply them.
A. neon glow
B. stained glass
and record your highest pagefile while rendering.


Image This applies to TechnoWeenie how? As a refresher, TechnoWeenie is the original poster of this thread, the one who accidentally purchased an extra gig of RAM and has said he could use the money from returning it, the one whom all this 'sound' advice is supposed to geared toward.

Where exactly did he say he was into editing 250mb images in Photoshop CS? Hell, where did he even say he owns a digital camera, or scanner, let alone 250mb tiffs from either source?

EOS1DS wrote:
People have different needs for RAM, PERIOD.


Couldn't agree more, hence the 1gig recommendation to a user that could use the cash and has not indicated consistent heavy image editing as one of his tasks.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:56 am 
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Always one for a challenge, I went ahead and creatied a monster tiff to edit. Let me say that I own both a digital camera and a scanner and consider myself a light hobbyist - I've never had, nor anticipate needing, to have to edit a file this big. For the sake of argument, I did today on my son's machine:

SPECS
Barton 2500+
Chaintech 7NIF2 nForce2 mobo
1g (2x512mb) OCZ PC3200 Platinum Revision 2
80g Western Digital 8mb 7200RPM Hard Drive

PROGRAMS LOADED
Photoshop Elements (don't own CS)
Outlook
Crazy Browser (IE Shell) with 6 active tabs
Windows Task Manager
Zone Alarm (systray)
AVG Free Edition (systray)
GMail Notifier (systray)
Norton Ghost (systray)
nVidia Display Settings (systray)

TEST FILE
11.4MB Tiff
Enlarged to 10,800 x 8100 (kept proportions)
250.3MB (before applying filters)

HIGHEST PAGE FILE USAGE
Neon Glass - 849MB
Stained Window - 684MB

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:55 pm 
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IO must admit the RAM is sitting on my table and I really dont think I have any better idea if it is better to install it or return it. Money wise i have a little extra at this moment so I could keep it but it it any advantage to do so? I game mostly I do NO photo editing how does the extra RAM affect game performance?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:06 pm 
Willamette
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TechnoWeenie wrote:
IO must admit the RAM is sitting on my table and I really dont think I have any better idea if it is better to install it or return it. Money wise i have a little extra at this moment so I could keep it but it it any advantage to do so? I game mostly I do NO photo editing how does the extra RAM affect game performance?


As you can see from my screenie, I had BOTH doom3 and HL-2 loaded and was able to play just fine with 1 gig RAM and a 1.5 gig pagefile. (pagefile was only at 580 meg max with 400 meg of physical RAM leftover).

So, you don't need (right now) anything more then a single gig of RAM, you'll be fine. I would return three sticks and keep one (because that's all you need), or if you want bragging rights and decide to keep the 2 gigs, it certainetly will not hurt anything, just understand it's not needed.

Choice is yours young padawan :P


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:38 pm 
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I don't know what else to tell you Technie without beating a dead horse. Based on your computing habits, you simply don't need nor will benefit from 2 gigs of RAM. There's a couple of MMORPG's that could use over 1gig, but I can count those on one hand.

As I mentioned, try out your rig both ways for a few days - with 1 gig installed then with 2.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:15 pm 
Willamette
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EOS1DS wrote:
People have different needs for RAM, PERIOD.


Duh. And the key word there is needs. You say it yourself...

This whole thread isn't about different people and there needs. It's about Technoweenies needs and he dosen't need 2 gigs of RAM. Your whole pagefile screenshot based off a render in Photoshop CS is pointless. Even One's debauchery of your experiment proves you and daveyd wrong. Your simply proving YOU need 2 (actually 4) gig of ram, not Technoweenie. And guess what? This thread isn't about you two...

Quote:
INSTIGATOR, IF YOU'RE STILL STUCK ON ONE GIG...WHO REALLY CARES?


Your joking right? I am RECCOMINDING 1 gig of RAM to Technoweenie, because he posted asking what he should do with his remainder. You and daveyd there argued with me and One about that. If you think I have somehow gone crazy, you must remember you people called down the whirlwhind. Now reap the thunder. Being PROVED wrong is painful for you two apparently. But, since it seems you HAVE indeed forgotten why I am defending myself and on the other hand proving you wrong, take a look at the beggining of this thread and the real source of the problem here...

Technoweenie wrote:
so do I send 1 GIG back and get my money back or just install it?


To which you and Canon Camera boy reply:
daveyd and EOS1DS wrote:
Here's a screenshot of my page file.


daveyd and EOS1DS wrote:
My VAIO desktop PCV RZ 46G came with one gigabyte...


daveyd and EOS1DS wrote:
As a busy photographer, I need to spend as little time as possible


daveyd and EOS1DS wrote:
been something very important to me


daveyd and EOS1DS wrote:
I just upgraded my ram to two gigabytes....


daveyd and EOS1DS wrote:
I don't need anyone to back up my claim.


daveyd and EOS1DS wrote:
I stressed the shit out of it


With all these my's and I's and mine's...are you referring to what's best for Technoweenie or yourself?

Ready for some comedy?
You say:
Quote:
It's better to have the ram available, than to have Windows request for "virtual memory," which is your hard disk.


Then you say (this is funny):
Quote:
Here's a screenshot of my page file comitting two gigs of physical ram


Here's the hilarious part!! (^BTW your pagefile isn't physical RAM)- You then follow that up with:

Quote:
I don't need 4 gigs of physical RAM. If I had that much RAM, again for a complete memory dump, I can tailor the page file to double it @ 8Gb.


Hehehe, so your running a 1.91 gb page file in addition to 2 gigs of physical RAM, but you don't need 4 gigs of RAM? Hmmm...

Quote:
Little does he know that's his system tray. hmmmmmm...

You had to prove your stupidity by making the word "IS" capitalized.


Hahahaha! The system tray IS located ON the taskbar, you dolt! lol!
Nitpick time! But to completely pwn you (you knew I had too!) Taken from your own link!:
"Windows' system tray is on the far right end of your task bar." You Tard! The system tray is located on the taskbar and is a part of the TASKBAR, not it's own seperate entity...

Quote:
and you're telling us that you install cable modems???


Actually I do alot more then just install cable modems, but yes, your correct about something finally... :roll: hehehe!

Quote:
Forget the RAM issue, I highly suggest that you click on the link below and read it thoroughly.
http://www.pcworld.com/howto/article/0,aid,73163,00.asp


Why? So I can pwn you again? Refresh from your own link (again-this is fun) "Windows' system tray is on the far right end of your task bar."

Quote:
instigatorX says:

"Unless your running photoshop CS. Even MPC states it "may" be bloatware."

Quote:
blah blah blah. If you want someone to believe you, next time put a link to your reference. I'd be calling tech support if you came to install my cable modem.


A reference eh? How about the April 2005 issue of Maximum PC (PAGE 69), Vol10, Number 4 which and I quote states in the picture caption:
"We updated from Photoshop 7 to Photoshop CS and experienced a drop in performance. Evidence of bloatware perhaps?
Christ, why do you post at these forums if you don't even read the magazine??

And if you called Tech Support about your modem, I am the one they would send to get you back online lol. I do both installs and troubleshooting because I am a BBT Level 2. Anyways, why would you call tech support about a modem install? I have hooked up literally hundreds of computers on our modem service and as long as your return is between 34 to 53 DBmv, your SNR is above 32.6, your analog carrier is no lower then +0 and your digital carrier is no lower then -10 your modem is guaranteed to work...If all else fails you can run a dedicated line from your first two way splitter or install a 2 way house amplifier, either way, if someone comes to do a modem install it has to work before leaving...so why would you be calling tech support again? You make no sense.

Quote:
How can you deduce Photoshop CS MAY be bloatware?

Your 1.91 GB pagefile for starters and MPC's quote...

Quote:
Have you ever tried using the program? It's available..why don't you go download it and see for yourself?


Hell no. Why would I download bloatware?

Quote:
How can you come in here and justify what someone needs with regard to RAM, or tell anyone about Photoshop if you can't figure out the basics?

Uh, I never tried to tell anyone about photoshop other then telling you guys that you do infact NEED 4 gig of RAM. Unless your telling me your 1.91 GB pagefile isn't a regular occurence, which I would have to ask you why you even have 2 gig of RAM instead of one...Which I would have to ask you why you reccomend 2 gig RAM when you yourself won't even use it....?



Quote:
Download photoshop, pick any decent 11 meg tiff or jpeg, and convert it to 10,000 X 10,000 or 250 meg, and render the following filters, then apply them.
A. neon glow
B. stained glass
and record your highest pagefile while rendering.
One (our resident super genius) did just that...and you have been proven wrong again....


Quote:
Moreover, don't come back and tell me how much ram I need or program I must have, or anything about my computer, I never asked for your input, nor do i need your nonsense..


Same thing to you. Don't bash me when your doing the same thing. I think your just confused...it's ok to be confused...Eitherway, with your 2 gig physical RAM and 1.91 GB pagefile, it's apparent you NEED 4 gig of RAM for that performance. We don't want any hard disk thrashing now do we?! LOL!

Quote:
REALLY>>>with a name like instigatorX, must you be as dumb as you appear?
To appear would indicate you can see me...Ack! Wheres the spy cam?! hehehe
(

Quote:
Go back and tell your customers where the taskbar really IS on your computer while you're at it, show them where's the system tray.
Could be the system tray is ON the taskbar, genius :roll:

Quote:
This issue was over two days ago and you're still looking for a debate? what's wrong with you??


No debate here, pure pwnage. I thrive on it. You attack, I defend. I don't stop until you do. If I am wrong, I admit it. I stop. In this case I am not wrong, as has been pointed out to you guys by myself, and One4ya. So the question really is...what's wrong with you?

Quote:
In all honesty, I can't help but wonder about the various turpitudes of modern society. The "quality" of your replies are rather whimsicle, and has little to be desired. Should you approach to prove otherwise, i'd feel more than welcomed to entertain you.

Sincerely,

R. Menuez


I am confused...are you speaking of me or modern society? If you think of Me as modern and society...wow! And if you think my replies are worthless, please feel free to browse my posts. I help countless people, solve problems regularly, and offer technical insight to the technically challenged...such as yourself.

Sincerely,

-IX


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:50 am 
King of All Voodoo2 Cards
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People who frequently download from Usenet and have a news server with a high retention rate (14+ days) also benefit from gobs of RAM.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:57 am 
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InstigatorX wrote:
I had DOOM3, Half-Life 2, Paint Shop Pro (editing my own .TIFF image btw) Microsoft Outlook, Internet Explorer, Zone Alarm, Steam, MS AntiSpyware, Norton Internet Securities, and Norton Antivirus (to to mention all of thier processes) all running at the same time. My page file was only at 468 MB. Very strange indeed. Let's see a screenshot with what you stated, but this time with us able to see the current processes and apps running, not merely having you tell us about them.


Probably that stupid resource utility he had off to the side... waste.


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