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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:03 pm 
Thoroughbred
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InstigatorX wrote:
I was running two of the most CPU, graphic and memory intensive games known to mankind.


Right... but HL2 was running in the background... probably freed up a good amount of RAM... and you were @ the title screen w/ Doom III.

If I have a level loaded up in either HL2 or Doom III, I will have more than 500MB allocated in my pagefile.

Also, nobody seems to be posting what size they're using for a page file (min and max).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:34 pm 
8086
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Instigator, you remind me of a whining little schoolboy, with his satchel and shining morning face, creeping like snail. Unwillingly to school.

Quote:
instigatorX wrote: Your whole pagefile screenshot based off a render in Photoshop CS is pointless. Even One's debauchery of your experiment proves you and daveyd wrong.
with Photoshop Elements??
Pointless and wrong, how so?

Now, you are back to indicate to us that One4yu2c was intoxicated while gathering his results.

Merriam-Webster Online suggests he's having an orgy.

debauchery- n : a wild gathering involving excessive drinking and promiscuity, orgy, debauch, debauchery, saturnalia, bacchanal, bacchanalia, drunken revelry.


WITH REGARD TO "debauchery,"HIS CONCLUSION PROVIDES US VERY LITTLE SIGNIFICANCE.


If the blind lead the drunk, both shall fall into the ditch.




Quote:
InstigatorX says: I am confused...are you speaking of me or modern society? If you think of Me as modern and society...wow! And if you think my replies are worthless, please feel free to browse my posts.


This is enough to reinforce my earlier statement, about the various turpitudes of modern society.

Laugh at yourself, and at life. Not in the spirit of derision or whining self-pity, but as a remedy, a miracle drug, that will ease your pain, cure your depression, and help you to put in perspective that seemingly terrible defeat and worry with laughter at your predicaments, thus freeing your mind to think clearly toward the solution that is certain to come.
Never take yourself too seriously.

R. Menuez


Kevin, if two gigabytes of RAM would work best for you, then that's great! Use caution when accepting advice from InstigatorX.


Last edited by EOS1DS on Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:46 pm 
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MoboMoFo wrote:
Also, nobody seems to be posting what size they're using for a page file (min and max).


1536MB on mine.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:51 pm 
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EOS1DS wrote:
HIS CONCLUSION PROVIDES US VERY LITTLE SIGNIFICANCE.


I'll agree, because Techno indicated he'll be doing NO photo editing whatsoever. Aside from that, please explain. I used a monster of a pic file and applied the requested filters. I'm tempted to download the trial of Photoshop CS and repeat the experiment, as I believe that's what your beef with the results are.

And no, I wasn't under the influence while posting any of these, however this thread has me second guessing the decision stay sober. :wink: :P


Last edited by One4yu2c on Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:52 pm 
King of All Voodoo2 Cards
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One4yu2c wrote:
MoboMoFo wrote:
Also, nobody seems to be posting what size they're using for a page file (min and max).


1536MB on mine.


Workstation = 2GB RAM + 1.5GB Fixed PF
Laptop = 512MB RAM + 1GB Fixed PF
Server = 512MB RAM + 1GB Fixed PF


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:10 pm 
Willamette
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MoboMoFo wrote:
Right... but HL2 was running in the background... probably freed up a good amount of RAM... and you were @ the title screen w/ Doom III.


Huh? Programs load into RAM when opened by user or @ startup. If a program is loaded, it IS in RAM, period. So when you say this:
Quote:
but HL2 was running in the background... probably freed up a good amount of RAM
it makes no sense and indicates you have no idea on earth how RAM functions in conjunction with apps and games and memory loading...

To prove this, simply open your task manager and click the "processes" tab. All your programs and thier threads and mem usage will be located there. Hell, I'll just let you click this screenshot link to prove it to you, make it that much easier for you. As you can see from my new particular screenie, I HAVE the doom3 enviornment loaded along with all the other apps and in the bottom right hand corner my mem usage is STILL only 756 out of 2459...only 30 % of total system memory and I still had 268 meg of physical RAM left over...and it's readily apparent I don't need two gig of RAM even with these monster games loaded in thier FULL enviornments. So why are people offering the wrong advice and saying you must have 2 gigs or you will fall short on system resources when even the two biggest uber games in all of history, the pinnacle of gaming and system resource munching, dosen't even consume 1 gig even when they are BOTH loaded at the SAME time!! I noticed only a 9% increase in mem usage with doom3 loaded into it's enviornment then when not. Point: you just don't need two gig of RAM like people keep telling you. Sure, you probobly will tommorow, and if you can, go ahead and get it now...but you don't need it...

Quote:
If I have a level loaded up in either HL2 or Doom III, I will have more than 500MB allocated in my pagefile.


Of course, I did too. Which isn't even the point. The point is that even though you have a 500 MB pagefile, you still have gobs of physical RAM leftover that wasn't currently being accessed, but was ready to be. I had almost 500 MEG physical RAM waiting to be used....Point, if I have 500 meg physical RAM leftover, it's apparent I don't need two gigs of physical RAM...have you even read these posts...jesus. Neither my physical RAM nor my pagefile was saturated simply because I didnt need that much RAM. Most of that 500 meg pagefile is required by windows XP anyways, or is XP eating it up along with antivirus, etc. Those programs can reside in the pagefile and leave your physical RAM to the big dogs, such as Doom3 and other system intensive progs which need the faster RAM access. You people are questioning me and yet I am explaining this elementary stuff about RAM to you??

Quote:
Also, nobody seems to be posting what size they're using for a page file (min and max).


1.5 GB min 1.5 GB max


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:24 pm 
Willamette
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One4yu2c wrote:

I'm tempted to download the trial of Photoshop CS and repeat the experiment, as I believe that's what your beef with the results are.



PS:CS is simply bloatware, and accesses WAY to much RAM.

IF you download that and rerun your test on PS:CS, you will only prove my above statement.

By using elements and running the SAME test, YOU PROVED that PS:CS was just bloatware!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:40 pm 
Willamette
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EOS1DS wrote:
Instigator, you remind me of a whining little schoolboy, with his satchel and shining morning face, creeping like snail unwillingly to school.


And you remind me of a turd I just released... why, not 5 minutes ago... Imagine that!



Quote:
with Photoshop Elements??
Pointless and wrong, how so?


By using elements and running the EXACT thing you specified him to do, he produced much better mem usage results, doing the exact thing you did, without the use of bloatware. Not only proves you wrong about needing 2 gig, but also wrong that PS:Cs isn't bloatware...it is.



Quote:
debauchery- n : a wild gathering involving excessive drinking and promiscuity, orgy, debauch, debauchery, saturnalia, bacchanal, bacchanalia, drunken revelry.


WITH REGARD TO "debauchery,"HIS CONCLUSION PROVIDES US VERY LITTLE SIGNIFICANCE.


Blah. One definition. This also proves something though...that you have a limited vocabulary...Debauchery is also used to describe and action or activity, which is exactly what One4ya2C was doing when he showed up your results.

debauchery-(an activity that diverts or amuses or stimulates; "scuba diving is provided as a diversion for tourists"; "for recreation he wrote poetry and solved crossword puzzles"; "drug abuse is often regarded as a form of recreation")
=> activity -- (any specific activity; "they avoided all recreational activity")




Quote:
If the blind lead the drunk, both shall fall into the ditch.

Which is why you were incorrectly agreeing with daveyd and actually thanked him for your 1.91 GB pagefile and bloatware? Good move!


Quote:
Kevin, if two gigabytes of RAM would work best for you, then that's great!

You just don't know when to quit do you? Me and One-along with weenies comments have made it perfectly clear that he dosen't need 2 gigs. So it won't work best for him. As a matter of fact, it will go to waste (unless he runs Photoshop CS, then yes, he needs atleast 4 gigs of ram. Even there your reccomendation of 2 gigs is incorrect, he will need atleast 4, so your still wrong.

Quote:
Use caution when accepting advice from InstigatorX.


I don't think it's me he needs to be worried about...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:21 am 
Sharptooth
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no apps in 64bit tech. yet so he should just stick with 1gb unless doing all the stuff yall said.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:38 am 
Coppermine
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MoboMoFo wrote:
Right... but HL2 was running in the background... probably freed up a good amount of RAM... and you were @ the title screen w/ Doom III.


InstigatorX wrote:
Huh? Programs load into RAM when opened by user or @ startup. If a program is loaded, it IS in RAM, period.

That's right the programs are loaded at start-up...but that's only 50 percent of the total resource issue. You open an antivirus program without performing the task of physical scan, you'd be missing the total picture of the entire resources being used. The same applies to any game...HL2, Doom 3, image editing programs etc. This is exactly what I had been talking about.


InstigatorX wrote:
So when you say this:
Quote:
but HL2 was running in the background... probably freed up a good amount of RAM
it makes no sense and indicates you have no idea on earth how RAM functions in conjunction with apps and games and memory loading...


It makes every bit of sense. Tell us the basics...i have no idea on earth!

InstigatorX wrote:
To prove this, simply open your task manager and click the "processes" tab. All your programs and thier threads and mem usage will be located there. Hell, I'll just let you click this screenshot link to prove it to you, make it that much easier for you. As you can see from my new particular screenie, I HAVE the doom3 enviornment loaded along with all the other apps and in the bottom right hand corner my mem usage is STILL only 756 out of 2459...only 30 % of total system memory and I still had 268 meg of physical RAM left over...and it's readily apparent I don't need two gig of RAM even with these monster games loaded in thier FULL enviornments. So why are people offering the wrong advice and saying you must have 2 gigs or you will fall short on system resources when even the two biggest uber games in all of history, the pinnacle of gaming and system resource munching, dosen't even consume 1 gig even when they are BOTH loaded at the SAME time!! I noticed only a 9% increase in mem usage with doom3 loaded into it's enviornment then when not. Point: you just don't need two gig of RAM like people keep telling you. Sure, you probobly will tommorow, and if you can, go ahead and get it now...but you don't need it...


Let's see a screen shot under the exact same conditions with what you have. Pull it up playing HalfLife2, 15 minutes in the game, with the task manager. But this time have the performance tab show us the details of all you physical mem, pf etc. so we can actually see you totals in plain view.

Which game is more of a resource hog, HL2 or Doom3?


*****************************************************
Quote:
Quote:
If I have a level loaded up in either HL2 or Doom III, I will have more than 500MB allocated in my pagefile.



Quote:
Of course, I did too. Which isn't even the point. The point is that even though you have a 500 MB pagefile, you still have gobs of physical RAM leftover that wasn't currently being accessed, but was ready to be. I had almost 500 MEG physical RAM waiting to be used....Point, if I have 500 meg physical RAM leftover, it's apparent I don't need two gigs of physical RAM...have you even read these posts...jesus. Neither my physical RAM nor my pagefile was saturated simply because I didnt need that much RAM. Most of that 500 meg pagefile is required by windows XP anyways, or is XP eating it up along with antivirus, etc. Those programs can reside in the pagefile and leave your physical RAM to the big dogs, such as Doom3 and other system intensive progs which need the faster RAM access. You people are questioning me and yet I am explaining this elementary stuff about RAM to you??


The point is that you PROVE IT. I don't buy what your you're saying, even for a dollar! (old screenshot) "Load Game" is telling us you are not physically playing. Let's see the gobs of leftover RAM while you play the "big dog," Half Life2! Don't chicken out! I'm dying to see this!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:35 am 
King of All Voodoo2 Cards
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Just to back up my previous post with some data, I've got a screenshot of my Usenet software in action sucking up tons of RAM:

Image

As you can see, a server with a high retention rate will drag down a system with 1GB or less. In this case I managed to hit over a gig by downloading all the headers for alt.binaries.dvd and alt.binaries.multimedia on a server with a 21 to 24 day post retention.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:08 am 
Willamette
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Quote:
Let's see a screen shot under the exact same conditions with what you have. Pull it up playing HalfLife2, 15 minutes in the game, with the task manager. But this time have the performance tab show us the details of all you physical mem, pf etc. so we can actually see you totals in plain view.


Nope. I have already taken three screenies, if your not convinced, do the work yourself. I am just about done with you and your nonsense. In the end, the whole ENTIRE point you are missing is that Technoweenie dosen't need 2 gigs of RAM, as me and One have proven.

You run photoshop CS, you run USENET, you run 5 games at once all while rendering a 500000 petabyte tiff file...yeah, your going to need more then one gig of RAM.

The real example to go by is what the vast majority of computer users own. Right now, most people who surf the net, do a little office productivity usage, send email, instant message, a little gaming only have around at a maxiumum 512 MB. Like I have said, I go inside of peoples homes EVERY day and am around thier computers constantly. 95% of the PC's I encounter are WinXp, 3% MAC, and 2% Linux-getting hooked up on High Speed Internet. Let's not even count the millions who use Dial up and win 98 or *gasp*-win 95... and you want to know something really, really scary? 90% of those people I hook up our modem service too have 256 MB ram or LESS.


Quote:
The point is that you PROVE IT. I don't buy what your you're saying, even for a dollar! (old screenshot) "Load Game" is telling us you are not physically playing. Let's see the gobs of leftover RAM while you play the "big dog," Half Life2! Don't chicken out! I'm dying to see this!!!


Insane...I have already done just that, with doom 3 at intro screen and HL-2 LOADED. I am not posting the memory2.jpg picture again showing this. Re-read back through my posts and find it yourself.

Quote:
As you can see, a server with a high retention rate will drag down a system with 1GB or less. In this case I managed to hit over a gig by downloading all the headers for alt.binaries.dvd and alt.binaries.multimedia on a server with a 21 to 24 day post retention.


Excellent work Flytrap. That ranks right up there w/ daveyd's mem usage. I don't know exactly what the whole point of that was, but if it was to show that 2 gig has it's uses, then that has already been covered.

I have never said you SHOULDN'T have 2 gig of RAM...only stated right now the GENERAL USER has no need of 2 gig. Hell, consuming a single gig still takes some effort.

IF you want to get 2 gigs, go for it, great. But unless your an Everquest fanatic, USENET cretin, or Photoshop CS enthusiaist, etc-you just don't need it. And if you do all the above, 2 gig isn't even where it's at anyways-you would need 3 gigs and beyond...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:28 am 
King of All Voodoo2 Cards
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InstigatorX wrote:
Flytrap7 wrote:
As you can see, a server with a high retention rate will drag down a system with 1GB or less. In this case I managed to hit over a gig by downloading all the headers for alt.binaries.dvd and alt.binaries.multimedia on a server with a 21 to 24 day post retention.


Excellent work Flytrap. That ranks right up there w/ daveyd's mem usage. I don't know exactly what the whole point of that was,



You know what? I'm not sure why the hell I posted it either. I think I'm still pissed off that I can't download off Usenet with my laptop anymore because it takes half an hour to process the headers when they're loaded into a PF.

One of the non-scientific ways I guage whether or not people need more RAM is to leave the task manager running while they use their computer and check to see if the Peak Commit Charge is higher then the Total Physical Memory. It really all depends if the person is multitasking or not, if not they can get away with less RAM

When I download from Usenet in the background while playing UT2004, I see a big difference between 1GB to 2GB. However I can't justify the move from 2GB to 3GB. I'd like to, but I don't see any use for it other then posting it seven times in giant bold letters in the system specs thread.

I suspect that when I upgrade from Premeire to Avid I'll need the extra RAM. Just my own personal experience.

<---------- THE USENET WHORE


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:33 am 
Willamette
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daveyd wrote:
With the WIN 64 bit operating system, the clear winner is the two gig ( 512 or 1 gb denominations, but 2 gb in size), and it's not even a close call.

That's all the there is to it! Thumbs up for 2 gig on the 64 bit os! :wink:

_______________

but it was the exact opposite with the 64 bit OS

________________

Kevin has a 64bit proc. With the arrival of Windows' 64 bitOS coming out next month , it would be advisable to keep the 2 gigs of Crucial value ram.


Actually, for XP 64, 2 gig won't really be enough for smooth performance...
"Windows XP Professional x64- updated 2/11/2005
System Requirements:
Supported processors: AMD Athlon 64, AMD Opteron, Intel Xeon with Intel EM64T support, Intel Pentium 4 with Intel EM64T support

256MB RAM

• 1.5GB available hard-disk space

• Super VGA (800x600) or higher resolution video card

• CD-ROM or DVD drive

• Keyboard and Microsoft Mouse or compatible pointing device


Reccomended

Windows XP 64-Bit Edition:
Minimum CPU speed- 733 MHz
Recommended CPU speed- N/A
Minimum RAM- 1 GB
Recommended minimum- N/A
Disk space required for Setup- 1.5 GB free

"The 64-bit version of Windows XP has a minimum requirement of 1 GB RAM. Microsoft® usually recommends double the minimum, although for now there's no recommended amount. From past experience, having twice of what Microsoft recommends is necessary for typical use. Therefore 4 GB of RAM may be necessary to properly run WinXP 64-Bit Edition."

Source

So even in reccomending 2 gig of RAM, you still fall flat...like I have said countless times, you need 4 gig of RAM daveyd...not everybody, just you.

"Longhorns expected Requirements:

Note these exceedingly high minimum requirements for Microsoft's next major operating system. This is only for the operating system on top of which all applications run.

Minimum Memory: 2 GB
Video: 64 MB (128+ MB recommended) on high bandwidth AGP 8X or PCI Express 16-lane bus for the full "Aero Glass Experience"

Source

Average Longhorn Requirements (Microsoft Recommends)
Processor: Dual-core CPU running at 4 to 6GHz
Memory: 2 GB to 4 GB (Double minimum is average)
Hard disk: Up to a terabyte
Networking: 1 Gbit, built-in, Ethernet-wired port and an 802.11g wireless link
Video: Graphics processor that runs three times faster than those on the market today (mid 2003)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:34 pm 
8086
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I have 3Ghz, 256Mb Vid, 1Gb ram, 74Gb Raptor, on my machine. I like playing Doom3, and Half Life 2.

Five minutes into HL2 and i've already consumed an 807Mb pagefile. Many have suggested an additional gig of ram. I hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:13 am 
8086
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Well I contacted New Egg for an RMA the are going to charge me 15% restocking fee and then I have to pay shipping! The bottom line is I will only get about $95 back for this memory! (thowing away $20) based on that and much of the advise here I believe I will simply install the RAM Thanks alot guys for all the advice Maximum PC forum has always been an awsome Forum (I had an account on the old Max PC forum a couple years ago) Thanks Again!


Kevin


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:29 am 
Coppermine
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Kev, you're welcome. Glad to see that you've benifitted from our posts.
I suppose it could have been a much better expierence had it not been for the two way stubborness, between instigatorx and myself. The man is quite knowledgable. Sometimes we don't see eye to eye. Moreover, i'll be damned if we can't agree to disagree. There will be heat everywhere we go. How we accept these indifferences between eachother is what matters most, with hope that it be in a mature perspective. Much has been learned in this thread from sharing our answers and opinions on both ends. Thanks for keeping us posted on your decision.


InstigatorX, in closing I hope that we will be able to continue to share our knowledge amongst eachother but in a more professional manner. I have my faults and hold no grudge upon you, and look forward to our next encounter in another debate, or just hanging out in the lounge.

One4yu2c...thanks for your opinionated comments, i send you my best regards.


MaximumPC forums kick ass! :wink:
daveyd

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT:
Kevin,
Despite your situation with the return, there is a performance improvement you will notice while playing games like Doom3, and HL2 with two gig RAM. Additionally, for an improved pagefile. Should you have another hard drive as slave, you can designate your system paging file to that drive OR another partition that's not occupied by Windows. Here's how: Control Panel > System > Advanced Tab > Settings (Performance) > Advanced Tab > Change...

If the pagefile is on the C: drive, click on it in the window, and under custom size, set 0 for both initial and maximum size, the click the set button.
Now click on your extra drive or partition, and under custom size, enter whatever is recommended (toward the bottom of the window) for both initial and maximum size, and click set. Windows will have you log off, and once you log back on, you can verify that pagefile.sys is on the drive/partition you selected.

Share this tip with others too. :wink:


Last edited by daveyd on Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:02 pm 
King of All Voodoo2 Cards
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daveyd wrote:
MaximumPC forums kick ass! :wink:


GIMME YO LUNCH MONEY!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:27 pm 
Coppermine
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Flytrap7 wrote:
daveyd wrote:
MaximumPC forums kick ass! :wink:


GIMME YO LUNCH MONEY!!!

AND FLYTRAP you can have my lunch money too!!! :P

Image
:evil: :evil: :evil: :x :x :x :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :x :x :x :evil: :evil: :evil:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:23 pm 
Willamette
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daveyd wrote:
I suppose it could have been a much better expierence had it not been for the two way stubborness, between instigatorx and myself. The man is quite knowledgable. Sometimes we don't see eye to eye. Moreover, i'll be damned if we can't agree to disagree. There will be heat everywhere we go. How we accept these indifferences between eachother is what matters most, with hope that it be in a mature perspective.


Ahh shucks, your not so bad yourself. We are just passionate about computing technology and want to get our points across. With that in mind, I think our points were made loud and clear :P

To me, debating about technology and whatever else it was we were doing was actually a learning process, and although it had some negatives, it had alot of positives. (I liked the CAS info).

For my closing, pagefile usage is apparently different machine to machine, which is something I didn't think would vary as much as it seemingly does.

You get 807 mb pagefile here, 500 mb pagefile there, etc etc. Having extra RAM can never be a bad thing, always remember that. You just may not necessarily need it :wink:


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