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 Post subject: barely-active cooling method
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:28 am 
8086
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Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:41 pm
Posts: 34
I'm just beginning to take an interest in OC-ing, and I've noticed that active cooling seems to be important. Also, that it often involves water (cold, of course) very close to the electronics, which is spooky. Also, there are at least 2 heatsinks necessary, and soon when SLI is mandatory for cutting edge games, we will all need 2 GPU active heatsinks plus the CPU, and perhaps memory, chipset, so on ad povertum. So I was thinking, why not cool a bunch of air, de-humidify it and blow it into the case as is normally done to room temp air in the traditional setup? Except, in this case, we'd be blowing in air that's maybe 5 or 10 C instead of 20 or 25...Obviously, this would effect on-die temp much less dramatically than applying ice water almost directly through very heat-conductive copper or aluminium, but it would also completely avoid the risk of leakage, and I'm guessing it could easily lower temps enough for all projects short of this:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... ge=1&pp=25
(not mine!)
I mean really, operating temps below 30C are just not necessary, right? And chip creep is not just the result of HIGH temperature, but of drastic temperature fluctuation, so ideally we would like to cool the components only to the EXACT operating temperature that they will be when power is off.
I know one of MaxPC's rigs of the month was built in a refrigerator, and overclocked, but I also seem to recall that the builder had a lot of challenges with moisture. What I have in mind is just venting some refrigerated air at the intake duct, and there may as well be a bunch of silica packs involved. Any suggestions, and especially personal experience with this general approach, would be much appreciated.
Sorry for the length of this post. In future, I'll try to be more thorough.
:wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:33 am 
SON OF A GUN
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15,000 BTU AC set to 68degrees F + dehumidifier + 8' x 15' room = really really cold air :)


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 Post subject: sure, but...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:12 pm 
8086
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but, part of my goal, which I didn't mention, is that I don't want to spend $9,000,000 cooling my PC, to get a $200 bump in CPU frequency. What you described sounds like a small corporate server closet. I am too poor for that. :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:19 pm 
Coppermine
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That sounds really interesting and like a good idea. maybe you should submit that to a cooling company or something :P


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 Post subject: open source hardware
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:33 pm 
8086
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Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:41 pm
Posts: 34
Maybe YOU should submit it to a cooling company!
:wink:
Now that I've posted my idea to a public forum, it cannot be considered a trade secret nor a patentable innovation, so basically that fortune belongs to whoever does the R&D to make it work. Which I was hoping somebody had already done, who would explain to me the ins and outs.
When it starts to warm up around here, I think I'll pick up a micro-fridge from the nearby University and see what I can do. Still, I'd like to hear from somebody who has tried this or something a lot like it.
If I make it work, be sure I'll post results right here first.
8)


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 Post subject: Re: open source hardware
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:46 pm 
Boy in Black
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iotest643 wrote:
Maybe YOU should submit it to a cooling company!
It's out there...
Image
Asetek VapoChill Case Cooler
"The VapoChill Case Cooler is an air condition system developed for direct - cooling of mission critical PC and entry level servers."

An A/C for your PC. The thing's as big as a mid-tower, but I imagine it could be shrunk a bit. Maybe to the size of a SFF case like an Icecube or the Aria.
------------------------------------
My thoughts are somewhat like yours though. I feel that cooling should be a much larger picture than what the industry is making of it. What's currently being done is the old stuff made bigger. Nothing new is really being made, and the steps are lateral more than it is forward. HS/F's made bigger, fins placed here, a fan added there...it's like putting fuel injection on a Model-T!

I think cooling should be broken down into the component level. The system as a whole should be cooled, but I find the above A/C a generic answer to a real problem. Folks like Asus and Abit kind of get it by placing HS's on the power reg, but not really doing it right. Asus has a heatsink on little more than half of the power reg circuitry (8 of the 12?). Abit goes about this with the brute force method with ducted cooling. Then, back to Asus, they try a Stack Cool plate on the back of the CPU area to wick heat. This is still a big area and not small enough IMO.

A board should be thermaly imaged, and each spot dealt with. Each little transistor that's hot, should get a wick. We also have 6-layer board tech, and they try and get the layers down to cut cost. So, make one whole layer a wick or device that deals with heat. Then move to other components and micro-manage each heat element. The tech is there, and it's actually getting old...but they need to at least try it once!

I thought I was on to something, and it just isn't being accepted. It was micro-tube cooling that made no noise and is very effecient. Just for the cpu, there is a layer of 100's of tubes crossing the IHS. Then you have a simple central device that gives the water and the tubing alternate charges and the water flows through these tubes to wick the heat. ScreenSavers on TechTV even had a working demo a year or so ago on air. More surface area could be achieved with it, it was built in...it just goes on and on, but was a huge advance that could be used for any device. If standardized, there's no need for all these fans and ancient methods. It could be made large enough to cool a whole board, and small enough to have a 2-tube setup to cool each micro-cap you may see on the back of the CPU. I don't understand the market out there, but to have this running a PC in dead silence would be the cure-all I thought.

Thorrn Micro Technologies and Purdue are both developing Microscale Ion Driven Air Flow which creates air flow through microscale heat sinks. The results are showing 1/10th the size of conventional methods with the same results.


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 Post subject: So Asetek makes just the thing I had in mind!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:29 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:41 pm
Posts: 34
Unfortunately it costs about as much as just upgrading to a cutting-edge mobo and CPU combination!
Still, I enjoyed seeing that my idea is actually feasible, and that it's even being sold--er, at least, it's available for sale :wink:

So, microtubes, you say? That would definitely improve the surface-area-to-volume ratio, and 10x improvement in cooling effieciency per volume sounds totally believable for shrinking from 5cm on a side for standard equipment to dimensions measured in um. What's hard for me to believe is that the industry is pursuing air in those tubes instead of water. Mainly because water, being partly polarized, could be driven through tubes electrically, but air has to be *pumped*, mechanincally and probably noisily. But the name Ion Driven Air Flow makes me think that's been overcome. Still, the density of water would seem to be a huge advantage, technically.

Anyway, fascinating information. I plan go google for Thorn Micro Technologies, and I assume that by Purdue you mean the university, and probably the physics department? I'd love to learn more, but I'd hate to try to navigate through any college's web pages. Usually disorderly, although I don't know about Purdue specifically. When I've researched what you've already told me, I'll probably post again with more questions about these impressive technologies.

In the meantime, I hope to start butchering a micro fridge sometime in April and use as many basic case fans as necessary to get some cold air evenly dispersed within my case, for a sub-optimal temporary measure.


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