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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:34 am 
Boy in Black
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While it may be custom built and an uber cool piece, I'm still sorry to say that the odds are it'll do just as good as a $50 DD piece. Maxx will start getting ya into all sorts of extreme water cooling tricks, and you'll quickly be into a $600 rig for 100 more Mhz. Hey, my hardware stops me well before the cooling does. But don't let me hold anything back...machine away! It just sucks that everything I have or will ever have is inferior because it's not plated in unobtainum.

And maybe it's all the BMW stuff that makes you think he's German??


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:50 pm 
Sharptooth
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CNC?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:54 pm 
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Chumly wrote:
It just sucks that everything I have or will ever have is inferior because it's not plated in unobtainum.


plated? its made in, by and from unobtainum


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:28 pm 
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Chumly wrote:
Maxx will start getting ya into all sorts of extreme water cooling tricks, and you'll quickly be into a $600 rig for 100 more Mhz.

Seriously, you expect me to comply with your private message request, while you post this kind of nonsense? You should take your own advice...

Chumly wrote:
While it may be custom built and an uber cool piece, I'm still sorry to say that the odds are it'll do just as good as a $50 DD piece.

See, that's better, constructive criticism instead of silly assumptions, but you forgot to back up your claim, which I can't really blame you for since you have absolutely no grounds for comparison... so please, at least provide evidence that silver plating isn't cost effective.

Chumly wrote:
It just sucks that everything I have or will ever have is inferior because it's not plated in unobtainum.

aww, is that why you resort to wild assumptions and unsubstantiated claims? :roll:

btw, I'm still being nice.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:38 pm 
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dunn2953 wrote:
CNC?

Computer Numerically Controlled milling or turning machines that turn blocks of metal or various other materials into products based on 2D or 3D designs generated by CAD applications. Here's an example from my own shop: http://maxx.wolltech.com/VMC-OK4020.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:05 pm 
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GamerZ wrote:
Also maxx what CAD program did you use when designing your water block? I've got Mastercam so. If you could post pics of the water block you made or the CAD drawing that would be cool.

We use several application in the whole CAE/CAD/CAM pipeline, the engineering and design is done in Catia, mainly because we have been using it forever, but these days it's just overpriced and more suitable for big time aircraft and automotive design... The real workhorse is SolidWorks, probably the current best parametric CAD package available. Incidentally, it's made by some of the same people that developed Catia, but it's more user-friendly, affordable and not nearly as complex, it gets the job done fast, as for the final step of actually turning a 3D model into cutting tool paths and lines of code that the CNC machines understand, we use CAMWorks, which is directly integrated into SolidWorks, the advantage of this vs lets say SmartCAM or MasterCAM is that sometimes you need to make modifications to the 3D model and it's much better to do it inside a top notch CAD application rather then inside MasterCAM, which is first and foremost a CAM application with only basic CAD features, it's a big timesaver and streamlines the whole process quite nicely.

Other then that, I've also used another SolidWorks integrated module called CosmosWorks, which allows me to run thermal simulations, and even flow simulations of the coolant, so I can perfect my design in the virtual stage and manufacture a perfect product with the highest level of cooling performance possible. This is what allows me to design the block for any family of processors, by creating a model of the CPU die, and applying accurate thermal output characteristics based on specs provided by the manufacturer (Intel or AMD) and placing it under the model of the water block and run my simulations... I've also calculated a certain resistance to simulate thermal paste which I obviously cannot accurately model, so this is the only point where I have to assume a little...

I will be able to show you guys some screencaps from my CAD and CAM application, and perhaps even video clips of the thermal simulation, but I'll have to design a new block, my old CAD files are too outdated, because for a long time now I've been using phase change mostly, but I'll put something new together within few weeks, so I can give you a demonstration...


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 Post subject: overkill?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:18 pm 
8086
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Now normally, I don't like to imply varying degrees of the absolute state "dead", and thus I try to avoid using the word "overkill." However, in this case it was the first word that came to mind when I read advice that a fella should design in CAD and machine (CNC) a part from scratch, incurring hundreds of dollars in community college drafting classes right off the top, instead of just silver-plating a commercially available part.
As I see it, the relevant facts are as follows:
1 The specific heat of silver is barely more than half that of copper, so it is nearly twice as effective at transimitting, or wicking away, heat (0.235J/g*K for silver compared to 0.384 J/g*K). Those numbers compare the energy (measured in joules, J) required to change the temperature of 1g gram of the respective material by 1 K (which is identical, when measuring temperature change, to 1 degree C). So I would claim that silver most likely is cost effective as a material, except that I think there are may be even better choices that for some reasons are not commercially common, yet physically superior. Even if it costs 10 times as much per gram or more(I do not know the prices), saving one CPU, chipset or GPU from heat trauma could make hundreds of dollars of cooling investment worthwhile. Plus, there is the annoyance cost, which is 100% personal.
2 I do strongly suspect, however, that CNC machining is unnecessary and a net loss for those who don't already have easy access to such resources. I base that on the belief that the greatest benefit of the whole improvement being discussed lies in the thermal properties of the materials used, not their shape, which is what the CAD/CNC tools customize. The geometrical factor is terribly simple: put a large, flat piece of cold material in good thermal contact with the CPU, or whatever else you want to cool. In physical terms, maximize area of thermal contact, which the manufacturers of copper parts have kindly calculated and machined in advance in a variety of flavors for the different hardware out there. Now, where's the village blacksmith? I want my heatsink tinned. Or silver-plated, whatever.
3 Footnotes: The specific heats of platinum and tungsten are approximately half that of silver, and therefore nearly twice as good for conducting heat. Even lowly tin is slightly better than silver, and the junk would be hidden between the cooling device and the computer hardware anyway, so why isn't tin used?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:25 pm 
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Arquero wrote:
Is the whole thing plated or just the underside (the part that touches the CPU) or the whole thing with extra on the bottom? Does this plating create a near-chemical bond? I assume something similar happens to be able to be extremely effective. Did you use a ball or a regular end mill? I assume your setup to do the fins was a small endmill and the channel was a larger endmil no ball endmill. A price breakdown would be cool!

Yes, the electroplating method creates a strong bond with virtually no thermal contact resistance between the two materials.

In case of copper, we mostly use high-speed-steel endmills, and for a water block, only standard... even for the rubber o-ring groove, a ball endmill is not appropriate. From the top of my head, I'd make sure the tool holder has the following for making a copper block:

face mill
roughing endmill (1/2")
finish endmills (1/2" 1/5" 1/8")
center drill (1/8")
drills (specific sizes, probably at least two)

Once I make my new design, I’ll give you all the info.


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 Post subject: Re: overkill?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:34 pm 
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iotest643 wrote:
...

Either one can do what I suggested, or one cannot and must find alternatives, it's kinda pointless to talk about how much of a nightmare this would be for the average consumer, cause not everyone has the practical means to acquire the "best" which the topic specified, so I only stated what it takes to have the "best"... if it sounds like too much trouble, then you have to settle for second best, at best :)

Btw, you're wrong about the "shape" of the block being of little importance, way wrong, I can design two blocks out of the same type of material, using the same volume of said material, and have one outperform the other by at least 10 degrees Celsius, not to mention there are other aspects of block design, like flow resistance... where one block would require a much stronger coolant pump then the other...


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 Post subject: crow tastes unpleasant
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:02 pm 
8086
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First, I have complete respect for the do-it-yourself approach.
Second, I have no doubt that your custom parts are better than manufactured ones.
So, I apologize for being extreme about the trade-offs of your approach. Clearly, I cannot back the claim that the CNC/CAD approach isn't worthwhile and my only intelligent(-ish) input would be in the form of a question: have you ever taken a stock copper part that you hadn't machined, and just applied silver to it, to see how much improvement that gives by itself? And where does a guy go to get an even layer of metal plating applied? A cheap jeweler? I'd be very interested in that, because I don't want to take the time to learn CAD, but a thin layer of metal plating would be technically very simple. I think...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:20 pm 
Thunderbird
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OMG guys stop chewing maxx out. Its something that we want to do and if you want to do something bad enough you do it, regardless of what people think.

maxx wrote:
We use several application in the whole CAE/CAD/CAM pipeline, the engineering and design is done in Catia, mainly because we have been using it forever, but these days it's just overpriced and more suitable for big time aircraft and automotive design... The real workhorse is SolidWorks, probably the current best parametric CAD package available. Incidentally, it's made by some of the same people that developed Catia, but it's more user-friendly, affordable and not nearly as complex, it gets the job done fast, as for the final step of actually turning a 3D model into cutting tool paths and lines of code that the CNC machines understand, we use CAMWorks, which is directly integrated into SolidWorks, the advantage of this vs lets say SmartCAM or MasterCAM is that sometimes you need to make modifications to the 3D model and it's much better to do it inside a top notch CAD application rather then inside MasterCAM, which is first and foremost a CAM application with only basic CAD features, it's a big timesaver and streamlines the whole process quite nicely.

Other then that, I've also used another SolidWorks integrated module called CosmosWorks, which allows me to run thermal simulations, and even flow simulations of the coolant, so I can perfect my design in the virtual stage and manufacture a perfect product with the highest level of cooling performance possible. This is what allows me to design the block for any family of processors, by creating a model of the CPU die, and applying accurate thermal output characteristics based on specs provided by the manufacturer (Intel or AMD) and placing it under the model of the water block and run my simulations... I've also calculated a certain resistance to simulate thermal paste which I obviously cannot accurately model, so this is the only point where I have to assume a little...

I will be able to show you guys some screencaps from my CAD and CAM application, and perhaps even video clips of the thermal simulation, but I'll have to design a new block, my old CAD files are too outdated, because for a long time now I've been using phase change mostly, but I'll put something new together within few weeks, so I can give you a demonstration...


First thats pretty cool how you can run simulations to calculate the best design, I didnt know you could do that.
Second to be honest Ive never heard of half of those programs (I currently only know how to do stuff in the programs we have) and
maxx wrote:
I will be able to show you guys some screencaps from my CAD and CAM application, and perhaps even video clips of the thermal simulation, but I'll have to design a new block, my old CAD files are too outdated, because for a long time now I've been using phase change mostly, but I'll put something new together within few weeks, so I can give you a demonstration...
that would be cool. If you wouldnt mind, if you come up with a design that is effective I would like to try to recreate it with the programs I have even though that would probably take a long while.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:29 pm 
Thunderbird
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And i know this doesnt mean anything to anybosy else but this is my parents site for their business. TAPerformance

The blocks and heads and manifolds and rear end covers we manufacture (mill the holes and such) using our CNCs. Ill try to post a pic.

And all the pictures of a blue wagon, my dad is driving it. TA Wagon


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:54 pm 
8086
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Welcome. I'm producer of X3M and other block from my site. If you any have questions write on e-mail or MSN. I'm relly happy that people from this forum look at my product.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:47 pm 
Thunderbird
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Mate wrote:
Welcome. I'm producer of X3M and other block from my site. If you any have questions write on e-mail or MSN. I'm relly happy that people from this forum look at my product.


Wow im honored sir, pleased to meet you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:59 pm 
Team Member
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That TA Wagon is BADASS! 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:55 am 
Thunderbird
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Thx dude, if you think its bad ass now in a pic you got to see it going down the track. Its so fricken loud, and the best part, I get to drive it in a couple of years.


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