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 Post subject: Best mixture for watercooling?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:08 am 
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100% water or should I use some antifreeze, maybe even water wetter? Not sure, anyone have experiences?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:53 am 
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interesting article :)


http://www.overclockers.com/articles993/


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:53 am 
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I use fluidXP, but for the most part you can use 10% Antifreeze to distilled water. You do need to have some kind of additive to fight corrosion and algae growth.


Last edited by IamDeMan on Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:06 am 
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How can we answer your question if you don't tell us how you plan to cool the water solution? If all you have is a radiator with a fan, then you don't need anti-freeze, just something that improves heat transfer, fights corrosion and prevents any biological growth...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:29 am 
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maxx wrote:
How can we answer your question if you don't tell us how you plan to cool the water solution? If all you have is a radiator with a fan, then you don't need anti-freeze, just something that improves heat transfer, fights corrosion and prevents any biological growth...


Don't need anti-freeze? What else do you say he uses to fight these elements? I find 10% anti-freeze to be the easiest solution. Alcohols will do that but they have negative effects on tubing and rubber seals.

BTW nothing improves the heat transfer of water. Alcohols can lower the viscosity, hence producing better flow which helps in lowering temps, but beside that effect nothing really improves the transfer, they just prevent things from happening that would have a negative overall effect.

I don't and won't use water wetter. It fights corrosion but it isn't the best for fighting algae. My friend used it once without any other additives and algea got in within a week. CCFL + water = ALGAE.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:47 pm 
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IamDeMan wrote:
Don't need anti-freeze?


No, I though I made that clear.

IamDeMan wrote:
BTW nothing improves the heat transfer of water.


Wrong. A combination of lower viscosity and superior surface tension is exactly what improves thermal transfer characteristics of water... the result of better surface tension is the formation of smaller vapor bubbles that are more evenly distributed (no hotspots) and are released faster... Why is that important? Because vapor bubbles create an insulation layer on the surface that ultimately decreases heat transfer... Any Methanol based solution is ideal... and while pure methanol has only about half the thermal conductivity of pure water, a properly mixed solution of distillated water and methanol (or methanol based additive) can achieve superior thermal transfer and prevent corrosion, due to those two key factors I mentioned above.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:27 pm 
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I see I placed a statement in the wrong spot but I did say...

"Alcohols can lower the viscosity, hence producing better flow which helps in lowering temps, but beside that effect nothing really improves the transfer"

I didn't explain the whole effect, nor did I completely understand why, but I did throw that effect in as an exception. Even then its a debateable solution because rubber doesn't like alcohol and to use enough alcohol to lower the viscosity and tension, could have negative effects on the components keeping your rig from ending up wet.

I will admit I didn't fully understand how surface tension played a role in tranfer, but your explanation make sense and is crystal to me.

Now besides an alcohol based solution what else would he use besides Anti-Freeze, because I think we both agree he can't run just water. If you say water wetter, then I say he better not have any CCFL lights in the system or you will have to add another additive with water wetter to combat algae. However if you use Anti-Freeze you have killed both those obstacles with one solution.

Now I know some use alcohol and have great luck in temps, however their rigs are never configured the same way long enough to find out the long term effects the alcohol has on the tubing and seals in the pump. I still think that alcohol is not a viable long term solution and will stick to just a bit of glycol.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:01 pm 
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So whats the downside of anti-freeze? I'm going with this system.

Koolance INEX


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:13 pm 
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Emwun Garand wrote:
So whats the downside of anti-freeze? I'm going with this system.

Koolance INEX


Anti-Freeze increases viscosity, so don't use alot. It is designed for temperatures extremes, so it has no real positive effects for cooling a PC. It is also designed to combat many types of corrosion and other impurities, so this is its main positive aspect of usage.

The koolance cases are great. I started with one. They are easy as pie to manage and use. They offer great cooling for a full kit.

I prefer to make a cooling systems from cherry picking components. Doing this can be costly and adds complexity though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:38 pm 
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hmm... may 2003's rig of the month guy, Mark Ray, said he used winshield-wiper fluid... "It's cheap, it contains methyl alcohol for excellent heat transfer, prevents galvanic corrosion, and is a wicked shade of blue. The alcohol does evaporate after a month or so, but for $1 per gallon, who cares?"


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:42 am 
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ocnoob wrote:
hmm... may 2003's rig of the month guy, Mark Ray, said he used winshield-wiper fluid... "It's cheap, it contains methyl alcohol for excellent heat transfer, prevents galvanic corrosion, and is a wicked shade of blue. The alcohol does evaporate after a month or so, but for $1 per gallon, who cares?"


I've read that too somewhere, but not brave enough to try it. I'm more pesimistic to think that it takes about a month, I'd bet sooner. And leaving my PC on, I'd hate to wake up to find the resevoir dry. And the blue is an evil die that tarnishes the parts I would also imagine. Look at your windshield washer resevoir...mine was blue before I even drove it home:p With repeated evap/refills, i'd imagine there'd be blue walls or grime. Just an assumtion.

To get blue, many are using a Volkswagon branded antifreeze mixed in with their H20. Sounds easy enough to me...

IamDeMan stated fluidXP, and that's what I'm trying out now. This is my first batch in use, so I have no real saying if it's awesome or not. I'm only trying it out because I like the statement they're making about it being non-conductive.

But something else strikes me odd about this. I see an arguement about antifreeze and elements. Well, there really shouldn't be "elements" in a system. I've used water wetter prior to this for about a year with no algae. I don't set my PC in the window to get light, and most algae will not grow in a stream of distilled water (to my knowledge), which BTW is a requirement. I would not run tap water in a PC's water rig, which I'm assuming is what was used in the "Icky" water-rig. On another note, I've used Water Wetter in every motorcycle I've owned since around 1995 and have never seen any weird crap come out when I flush it.

And once you mix something with water...it's not water any more ;) I just think it's getting a little too technical here. Throw some distilled water in with a little waterwetter/antifreeze/whatever and run it and see. If it don't work for you, then it don't work for you and can try something else. Damn the internet and all the spoils! For once I'd like to see someone use their own ideas on their own computers:p


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:20 am 
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Hi Chumsly et al.

I wanna add something.

I know a bit on the subject (at least about water).

What about purified drinking water?

DI water is acidic (which is why you should avoid drinking it) and its not buffered so the pH drops as it gets hotter.

The lack of algae you notice is simply because it clean - certain types of bacteria and algae can easily grow in DI if provided an energy source (particles in the water, the Sun, some bacteria even "eat" metal).

Has anyone bothered trying purified water instead of DI?

DI is not the best choice IMO. There is a type of water called "Demineralized" (DM) that would be a better choice. Only, I am not sure where you would get it outside a lab. Basically its just super filtered.

Manta


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:26 pm 
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Chumly wrote:
algae will not grow in a stream of distilled water


Yes it will. BTW there are contaminants in a radiator when you buy it and you cant exactly clean it. You can keep rinsing it through, but its never going to get rid of everything, especially heatercore styles like I use. Any deposit in a rad are quickly escorted around making the water not so distilled anymore. Most people who watercool have nice CCFL's that are an excellent source of UV light, which is where abundance of algae comes from. It is impossible to assemble a watertcooling system that is absolutely void of any contamination outside of a Lab environment. This is why a good additive is needed. Water Wetter is good stuff for what its designed for, but if you have lights I highly suggest something more than just WW.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:36 pm 
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MantaBase wrote:
DI is not the best choice IMO


Sure it is, you obviously forgot the "practical" aspect of the application...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:08 pm 
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maxx wrote:
MantaBase wrote:
DI is not the best choice IMO


Sure it is, you obviously forgot the "practical" aspect of the application...


Please elaborate maxx.

I just looked and some brands of of bottled water are close to DM standards and thus may be better than DI. True DI has a pH of ~5.5 - thats not good for parts - it will eat them away.

Manta


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:36 pm 
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a bit late on the subject but as for using windshield wiper fluid, it's great. I currently have been using a 60/40 mix distilled water to washer fluid for over 1 year, I use clear rubber hoses designed for garden ponds. I've changed the hoses once, not due to wear but just maintenance. When I changed them there was little to no wear visible, not meaning there may not have been some minor deterioration but it wasn't anything significant. I've never had an issue with algea and my temps are good. 1800xp oc'd to 2.0 12.5*160 stays at or slightly below ambient room temp. I've recommended using it to several friends who have also never had any issues with deterioration of hoses or problems with cooling. Like was posted, it's cheap, and it works great for me. It does evaporate away and needs to be checked about once every 2 weeks, but with a larger resevoir, mine holds about 2 liters, you could add once a month. I'm currently building a larger res just for that issue. Part of my evaporative problem was caused by me, I was trying some experimental ways to cool and it wasn't worth the risks and price so I temporarily sealed some holes in my res lid.

If you have any questions on anything about my system feel free to ask.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:58 pm 
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MantaBase wrote:
I just looked and some brands of of bottled water are close to DM standards and thus may be better than DI. True DI has a pH of ~5.5 - thats not good for parts - it will eat them away.


Like the drinking stuff?? LOL...I never even thought about that. Hey, it's worth a shot. I don't have anything to measure Ph here, but I see pond supply stores are offering kits for about $16. I WILL want to try this thought! Next rig is undecided between CC tubes or placed LED's, so I may need to start watching this.

And I forgot all about general CC tubes. I have a UV rig and not a colored CC unit, so that may be a reason why I'm running clean.

And as far as corrosion, the WW stuff has inhibitors to prevent the bi-metallic corrosion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:07 pm 
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I'm so confused, everyone has their opinions. What about

85% water, 10% anti-freeze, 5% water wetter and some of that anti algaeic stuff?


BTW, this is going in the Passive cooled Zalman Reserator system.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:21 am 
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Emwun Garand wrote:
I'm so confused, everyone has their opinions. What about

85% water, 10% anti-freeze, 5% water wetter and some of that anti algaeic stuff?


BTW, this is going in the Passive cooled Zalman Reserator system.


I think for your current application you can use 5-10% Antifreeze and DI water. I think we have begun to delve into the "Experimental" aspects of the topic in this thread. Thats what is confusing. Once you get going, you can experiment with WW and the XP water stuff.

overclocker's site article wrote:
High quality automotive antifreeze and corrosion inhibitors contain pH buffers, which will help maintain an alkaline pH and prevent the coolant from becoming acidic. Over time, these buffers may be used up resulting in the coolant water pH becoming acidic.

The pH value of a solution can be measured in several ways. In the lab, a pH meter can obtain very accurate readings. For our purposes though, simple pH indicator strips will provide useful readings at a minimal cost.


If you can find an algaecide, normally you don't need much of it for it to work. Just read the instructions.

Manta


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:41 am 
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Chumly wrote:
MantaBase wrote:
I just looked and some brands of of bottled water are close to DM standards and thus may be better than DI. True DI has a pH of ~5.5 - thats not good for parts - it will eat them away.


Like the drinking stuff?? LOL...I never even thought about that. Hey, it's worth a shot. I don't have anything to measure Ph here, but I see pond supply stores are offering kits for about $16. I WILL want to try this thought! Next rig is undecided between CC tubes or placed LED's, so I may need to start watching this.

And I forgot all about general CC tubes. I have a UV rig and not a colored CC unit, so that may be a reason why I'm running clean.

And as far as corrosion, the WW stuff has inhibitors to prevent the bi-metallic corrosion.


Yeah - I read that article from the OC site (look up one post). Turns out Antifreeze has buffers in it (I don't remember seeing that before). So I guess DI is ok in that case as long as you get enough in. A swimming pool pH kit would be great to test your pH. Even some of those cheap strips.

You want a buffered pH between 6.5 and 8.0 IMO. I base that on some experience, but someone may know better.

If you look at drinking water you want something with <100 but more than 50 TDS. This keeps the calcium buildup down and still allows for buffering action. Hmm.....know that I think about it, I wonder what mixing some DI with drinking water would do?

Wow - I never thought DIY mixtures for water cooling could be so complex.

Manta wishes he had a lab to play in again!!

Manta


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