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 Post subject: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Howdy Y'all!

I'm with Overclockers.com, but I wanted to include your team in this discussion, since you were one of the original teams in the event.

I'm looking for ideas to change the Chimp Challenge, into a cooperative teams race or effort, of some kind, instead of a team vs. team format. The main reason is that I see no way to make the race "fair", or even close to it, when we have teams whose folders are earning millions of points per day. (Brilong for instance, is now up to 9 Million ppd!)

We did not have time to make all the changes needed before the last CC, but we do have time now, if we get working on it.

I'd like to do some brainstorming with you (and other teams as well), and see which ideas have a good vibe to them. No idea is a bad one! The more we have to consider, the more likely we can find a good idea for the next race.

Any idea's? What would you like to see in a cooperative multi-team effort? 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:31 am 
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I don't know how winners or whatever would be determined, but a real basic idea is to take an average of all teams PPD for some time period (the month of october or some time closer to the CC, for example), then get the same average over the length of the CC. This would be very cooperative and good for all teams. The research and PPD are why we all fold.

I think that most, if not all (here at least), typically put forth as much effort as possible all of the time. Some people that normally don't fold all out may go 100% during the week of the CC, so that would be cool. Some others pick up some hardware for the CC and moving forward, but again, most pick up what they can when they can and utilize it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:28 pm 
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That's an interesting idea. We've used something similar for CC races, but of course, they were all competitive.

Hmmmm. Thanks for the reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Evening guys. I am here from Folding@EVGA to join with Adak to try to help get the get the thoughts flowing and see if we can start hammering out the rules for this years CC.

I am a clean slate in terms of helping with CC's setup. Xavier Zepherious and I have been talking and I have a some idea of how things have gone in years past with MPC's goals for CC.

@Gero1369

I like your idea myself, but let me ask you a direct question to your idea. Do you see the goal of CC to:
1. have current members run at 100% and/or add new hardware to secure a win for your team
2. to find NEW folders to help the whole project's PPD and your own teams for the duration of CC?


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:20 pm 
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It has been mentioned in the past, that MaxPC would like to see a raw (no handicap) race format, in the CC.

This is the current stats for the teams who typically would be involved:
Code:
2   folding@evga            850     46,416,260
3   Overclock.net           383     17,211,185
4   www.overclockers.com    174     16,491,867
5   TSC! Russia             353      8,498,644
6   Maximum PC Magazine     228      8,133,624
7   Custom PC & bit-tech    213      6,879,816
8   Overclockers Australia  137      2,997,858
13  NCIX.com Forum Folding   58      3,607,856
14  Vietnam Global Team      26      7,398,360


To equal the biggest team, you would need to add 38.2 Million points per day, to your production. On race days, that would be even a greater difference.

Is a no handicap race like this, REALLY something that you'd like to have in the CC next year?


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:53 am 
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Id rather direct you to read and discuss it on EVGA forums
http://forums.evga.com/tm.aspx?m=2037057

Id rather see a split 3 or 4 contest - multiple formats where 1 contest is a straight point race - (back to the original format)

there still be other ways for smaller teams to win


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:58 am 
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I'd say that a flat total points race is, bluntly, unfair. The only way that it could be made fair is if it would be tiered or something (based on current team PPD). Something like (maybe +/- 5-10% or something as well):

Tier 1:
20+ million avg PPD

Tier 2:
15 to <20 million avg PPD

Tier 3:
10 to <15 million avg PPD

Tier 4:
7-10 mil PPD

Tier 5:
4.5-7 mil PPD

... etc.


I think that at least a few different types of races would need to be required as well. Here are a few ideas:
- The above tiered format
- an average active user PPD race (increase or overall)
- a % based increase in PPD format open to all teams
- a low avg PPD or rank team race (<1 mil avg PPD, rank > 50, fewer than 30 active users, or something)
- whatever else

I wouldn't mind being a captain of my 'other' team if we'd be allowed to enter (and nobody else wants to) (PNY_Folds) and MPC decides to opt out again.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:09 am 
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Hello All, pcmaster00 from EVGA's team here. I am assisting XZ as his co-captian.

What I would like to start with is a simple question to the MPC community. What would you like to see as the end goal for CC? Lets get that locked down before we try to set on a format for the contest.

My goal, as well as many of EVGA's team, is to see the membership and PPD increase for CC as a whole, yes for the contest, but as a whole as well so that we can all assist Stanford with their research. If we can settle on a general message and/or goal for CC, this can help unite us rather than just disagreeing over the contest rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:16 am 
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I strongly support bringing in teams, into the Chimp Challenge race. Final approval would be by the CC Captains of all the racing teams.

There will be at least one handicap category race, for sure. The other race categories are being decided.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:48 pm 
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I know what you are trying to do, and most likely I am not the one to say anything. But it is apparent that members of team 11108 have no interest in what the CC has become.

I see post like "Hmmmm. Thanks for the reply"......

Tells me you have already decided.

We are team 11108..


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:15 am 
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pcmaster00 wrote:
@Gero1369

I like your idea myself, but let me ask you a direct question to your idea. Do you see the goal of CC to:
1. have current members run at 100% and/or add new hardware to secure a win for your team
2. to find NEW folders to help the whole project's PPD and your own teams for the duration of CC?


Sorry, missed your reply earlier.
The goal would be to increase the team average as much as possible from the initial time frame selected and compare the average PPD over the CC. For argument/example sake, say that team 1 has an average PPD of 1 million points for the week of Oct. 20-26. During the CC, the team is able to increase it's PPD average to 1.2 million (a 20% increase). The average for Team 2 goes from 2 million to 2.3 million over the same measures (a 15% increase). Team one would win. It would be more difficult for team 2 to win, but it would encourage additional hardware as well as recruiting new folders. Both routes would help to win.

The increase in PPD would have to be a team effort because as current average PPD increases, the increase in PPD would have to be larger in accordance.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:30 am 
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Gero1369 wrote:
pcmaster00 wrote:
@Gero1369

I like your idea myself, but let me ask you a direct question to your idea. Do you see the goal of CC to:
1. have current members run at 100% and/or add new hardware to secure a win for your team
2. to find NEW folders to help the whole project's PPD and your own teams for the duration of CC?


Sorry, missed your reply earlier.
The goal would be to increase the team average as much as possible from the initial time frame selected and compare the average PPD over the CC. For argument/example sake, say that team 1 has an average PPD of 1 million points for the week of Oct. 20-26. During the CC, the team is able to increase it's PPD average to 1.2 million (a 20% increase). The average for Team 2 goes from 2 million to 2.3 million over the same measures (a 15% increase). Team one would win. It would be more difficult for team 2 to win, but it would encourage additional hardware as well as recruiting new folders. Both routes would help to win.

The increase in PPD would have to be a team effort because as current average PPD increases, the increase in PPD would have to be larger in accordance.


Personally I like this idea because its all based on increasing PPD. I have proposed something similar over on EVGA's forums, but as a part of a broader multi-goal competition. Adak had pointed out to me via a PM over on EVGA's forums that EVGA would lose in this kinds of contest based on every simulation in the past. To that my answer is "I don't care (about losing this specific leg of the competition)". All that being said, the EVGA team has not come to a consciousness on what we would like to see. There is strong push for a straight points race though.

@Gero1369
What is your thought on ringers?


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:11 pm 
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pcmaster00 wrote:
@Gero1369
What is your thought on ringers?


Yeah, that is a tough nut to crack. I haven't paid much attention to the effect over the past two or three years, but I would imagine that a larger team bring in a ringer has a much lower effect than bringing in a ringer to a 'lower performing' team.

That said, I was finally just reading the thread at EVGA and I liked the idea of having two measurements or a longer CC. That could help on the point of bringing in ringers. Something like a month or month and a half between measurement points (having a measurement of a week or so should be fine). That would discourage some ringers from jumping from one team to another for the duration(s). Maybe a third, possibly shorter, measurement time in the middle somewhere as well to discourage the ringers from folding for the new team only during the measurement times.

From my vantage point, a 'ringer' from a small, lower point producing team could be someone purchasing a new GPU, but on a larger, more PPD producing team, it would have to be someone with some real 'firepower' (as in 1 million + PPD or something).

I do like the idea of having multiple formats. Maybe a jaded monkey with a badge or designation for the format. I don't think that a flat out Points format would be good (mainly due to the top four or five teams making at least twice avg. PPD of what the 6th place team makes [where did hardware.no come from?]).

I don't know solid solutions, but the pairing or grouping of teams seems interesting too. create a few teams of teams that have roughly the same PPD average and let the Uber teams fight it out in some kind of race. That could even be another format added to the list!

Also, one interesting thing in the EVGA forum being thrown around for an idea on the ringer problem is to limit 'new' folders on a competing team to a certain number of points (250k PPD for example). That seems interesting, but a way to outwit that is easily enough thought of.
Fun for all!


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:43 pm 
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EasyE wrote:
I know what you are trying to do, and most likely I am not the one to say anything. But it is apparent that members of team 11108 have no interest in what the CC has become.

I see post like "Hmmmm. Thanks for the reply"......


The "Hmmmmmm", meant it was thought provoking.

Quote:
Tells me you have already decided.


I haven't decided anything for the next CC race. We are just bringing up ideas for it, at this time. That is all. Nothing is being proposed to the Captains forum yet - they haven't even met since last May or June.. No votes on anything have been taken. Not before, and not now.

You can "know" what you want, but that's the facts, if you're interested in them.
Quote:
We are team 11108..


I know. That's why I'm here.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Gero1369 wrote:
pcmaster00 wrote:
@Gero1369
What is your thought on ringers?


Yeah, that is a tough nut to crack. I haven't paid much attention to the effect over the past two or three years, but I would imagine that a larger team bring in a ringer has a much lower effect than bringing in a ringer to a 'lower performing' team.


Correct! There are two quantities that we deal with:

1) Percent - Smaller teams will always win a race based on percent increase. That is a fact, not a debatable point.

2) Points - Raw point races will always be won by the "big dog" team in the race, if they are present. Here, that is EVGA, and that is also a fact.

We have used categories for this, in the past. A simple one would award points based on a teams placement in the categories. For example:
Code:
Chimp Points earned:
==================================================================
Points Category:       Percent PPD Improvement
10 - EVGA               10 - Vietnam Global Team
9 - OCN                  9 - Tech Power Up!
8 - OCF                  8 - Hardware Canucks
7 - TSC                  7 - OCAU
6 - MaxPC                6 - OCF
5 - Vietnam Global       5 - MaxPC
  etc.                       etc.

Total Chimp Points for the Day:
15 - Vietnam Global Team
14 - OCF, OCN, EVGA
11 - MaxPC, Tech Power Up!, etc.
etc.

Which can work fine, if the categories are based on PPD, instead of factors like percent participation. The participation factor will also be yet another factor favoring small teams.

And in these categories, the starting point must be RACE performance last year - if available. NOT current ppd!

Current or average monthly ppd figures have NO relation to racing point production.

Quote:

That said, I was finally just reading the thread at EVGA and I liked the idea of having two measurements or a longer CC. That could help on the point of bringing in ringers. Something like a month or month and a half between measurement points (having a measurement of a week or so should be fine). That would discourage some ringers from jumping from one team to another for the duration(s). Maybe a third, possibly shorter, measurement time in the middle somewhere as well to discourage the ringers from folding for the new team only during the measurement times.

From my vantage point, a 'ringer' from a small, lower point producing team could be someone purchasing a new GPU, but on a larger, more PPD producing team, it would have to be someone with some real 'firepower' (as in 1 million + PPD or something).

I do like the idea of having multiple formats. Maybe a jaded monkey with a badge or designation for the format. I don't think that a flat out Points format would be good (mainly due to the top four or five teams making at least twice avg. PPD of what the 6th place team makes

[where did hardware.no come from?]).

I have asked myself the same question? Who are these people?
Quote:
I don't know solid solutions, but the pairing or grouping of teams seems interesting too. create a few teams of teams that have roughly the same PPD average and let the Uber teams fight it out in some kind of race. That could even be another format added to the list!

Also, one interesting thing in the EVGA forum being thrown around for an idea on the ringer problem is to limit 'new' folders on a competing team to a certain number of points (250k PPD for example). That seems interesting, but a way to outwit that is easily enough thought of.
Fun for all!


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:46 am 
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Adak, one of the things that bothered me in one of the last CC's I folded for. After a 'good fight' MPC was closing in on a 3rd place finish. Nothing wrong with that, we were fighting the good fight.
Then, some of the members of the teams that had finished before us, joined teams that were behind MPC for the sole purpose of boosting them ahead of MPC. Then joined another team that was behind MPC to boost them ahead.
I think we ended up somewhere around 5th or 6th when we would've had a solid 3rd if it hadn't been for those azzhatz. I believe it was one particular person that orchestrated that effort. But I have no proof so I will not provide a name.
If there were a rule about only folding for one team during the CC and a way to enforce it, what happened to MPC wouldn't happen again to some other team. There would have to be a roster of who is folding for your team. And some way of checking that roster against other teams during the CC. Then a proportional penalty.
However, I also see a problem with this. Someone would start folding with one team for the sole purpose of then jumping to another team to cause the penalty to be enforced. The only penalty I see that could work with this would be disallowing the points generated by that individual.
It would probably take a few CC's to clean out the cruft, but banning those 'folders' from joining ANY team following being caught doing this is the only 'solution' I can see.
The problem with tracking who is folding for the teams is another problem I see. What is to stop you from just making up another folding personna and fold for another team with it? Then going back to your original name when done.
There are too many devious jackwads out there that would see this as a challenge. They would just have to find a way around this. As crackers find the challenge in firewalls, etc.
There are always going to be those that just HAVE to flaunt the rules. Why? Because they can. There is not any penalty that they care about at all.
Good luck with future CC's. I wish you and all the team captains the best.
Try to get the individual jerks out of the CC.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:19 am 
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dedgar wrote:
If there were a rule about only folding for one team during the CC and a way to enforce it, what happened to MPC wouldn't happen again to some other team. There would have to be a roster of who is folding for your team. And some way of checking that roster against other teams during the CC. Then a proportional penalty.
However, I also see a problem with this. Someone would start folding with one team for the sole purpose of then jumping to another team to cause the penalty to be enforced. The only penalty I see that could work with this would be disallowing the points generated by that individual.
It would probably take a few CC's to clean out the cruft, but banning those 'folders' from joining ANY team following being caught doing this is the only 'solution' I can see.
The problem with tracking who is folding for the teams is another problem I see. What is to stop you from just making up another folding personna and fold for another team with it? Then going back to your original name when done.
There are too many devious jackwads out there that would see this as a challenge. They would just have to find a way around this. As crackers find the challenge in firewalls, etc.

@dedgar,
To address the kind of concerns that you have raised, an idea that has been floated within the EVGA team, and from what I understand, between the captains as well in the past. The idea is to have multiple awards for multiple goals. I would suggest that this method can be beneficial because a ringer could be more easily spotted because there isn't just one set of rules to try to jump through. If we were to have 4 competitions such as:
1. straight points race
2. % PPD increase by per team
3. handicap race (like last year)
4. co-op race (teams banding together for specific matchups)

These by no means are the only suggestions. We just want to see CC become more fun and productive rather than a fight.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:42 am 
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dedgar wrote:
Adak, one of the things that bothered me in one of the last CC's I folded for. After a 'good fight' MPC was Good luck with future CC's. I wish you and all the team captains the best.
Try to get the individual jerks out of the CC.


EVGA has wiped out any ideas I had about improving the race. I doubt any changes will be made without a spirit of cooperation.

Sorry to hear about MaxPC's problem in the race. I remember hearing about some of this in the 2011 CC (when Hardware Canucks won).


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:37 am 
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Adak wrote:
EVGA has wiped out any ideas I had about improving the race. I doubt any changes will be made without a spirit of cooperation.

I'm curious to ask, where has the EVGA team "wiped out any ideas (you) had about improving the race"? Yes there has been clear dissension about the format you are pushing, but you also acknowledged a willingness to look into "other race categories", which I take to mean a multi-race/multi-award format. This is something the EVGA team is also recommending. There is common ground here, we just all need to stop sniping at each other and work together to come up with a format that speaks to everyone concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: Ideas for New Format for the CC!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:05 pm 
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pcmaster00 wrote:
Adak wrote:
EVGA has wiped out any ideas I had about improving the race. I doubt any changes will be made without a spirit of cooperation.

I'm curious to ask, where has the EVGA team "wiped out any ideas (you) had about improving the race"? Yes there has been clear dissension about the format you are pushing, but you also acknowledged a willingness to look into "other race categories", which I take to mean a multi-race/multi-award format. This is something the EVGA team is also recommending. There is common ground here, we just all need to stop sniping at each other and work together to come up with a format that speaks to everyone concerns.


Was that "willingness to look into other race categories", BEFORE evga's 10th barb aimed at me, or AFTER the 15th? evga's problem with me is that my team beat them the last two years in a row.

If I propose a good idea for the CC, well -- obviously it's a conspiracy to win the CC again. And if I propose keeping the CC the same, well -- obviously it's a conspiracy to win the CC, because my team won it the last two years.

There is no way to work with people like that, and there is no way to improve the CC with that lack of trust and cooperation.


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