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 Post subject: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:04 pm 
Thunderbird
Thunderbird

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:00 am
Posts: 928
I have two routers in my house. One I use primarily as a modem with most of the "router" features turned off. This one: (A)

http://i.imgur.com/jcedm.jpg

But all of my computers are connected to this router (because it's the better one and the only reason I use the other one is because FiOS requires it): (B)

http://i.imgur.com/ni9n1.jpg

As you can see, the B's WAN port is connected to one of A's LAN ports. This works and all is well. But I recently bought a WDTV Live and plugged it into one of the other LAN ports on A, since all of B's LAN ports were full. It won't grab an IP address. I can't get it to connect to the Internet.

If I log in to the Verizon router (A), this shows up:

Image

WNDR3700 is router B, and "new-host" is the WDTV Live. It seems to have an IP address but it says it's "Inactive". I have no way of activating it since I have no idea how. I've rebooted everything to no avail.

I've also set it up manually instead of automatically and still on the WDTV Live it pulls a 169.254.x.x IP. Any ideas?

EDIT: I got it working by setting the DNS and Gateway to the IP address of Router A. (192.168.4.1) But now I can't get it to access any of the computers connected to Router B (network shares and such)


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:52 pm 
Million Club [PC]*
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Location: Motor City, folding for Mom
That info you posted (from the FiOS router) shows that it's operating as a router (nothing disabled, no bridging); I'll bet that the Netgear is also operating with all of its routing functions 'on' - if that's the case, there's zero chance of the WDTV Live (or anything else connected to the FiOS router) to 'see' anything connected to the Netgear.

Of course, verification would help. Could use a little info from a desktop (or other PC) there: could you post an ipconfig output?
Open a command prompt. Type ipconfig /all <Enter>.
Right-click anywhere in the command window > select all > <Enter>. Contents of that window are now copied to the Clipboard; simply paste into your reply.

If it's what I think it's going to be (a different network range, with the Netgear as the gateway), there will be only one fix (given that you're out of ports on the Netgear already): you'll need a switch, hung off of the Netgear.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:31 pm 
Thunderbird
Thunderbird

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:00 am
Posts: 928
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7600]
Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

C:\Users\Kyle>ipconfig /all

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : Kyle-PC
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 2:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : NVIDIA nForce Networking Controller #2
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-04-4B-02-0B-47
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.2(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Wednesday, September 29, 2010 2:22:40 PM
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:22:39 PM
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : NVIDIA nForce Networking Controller
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-04-4B-02-0B-46
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Ethernet adapter VMware Network Adapter VMnet1:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : VMware Virtual Ethernet Adapter for VMnet
1
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-50-56-C0-00-01
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::f1f9:ffbb:7e0e:8b18%19(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.239.1(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . :
DHCPv6 IAID . . . . . . . . . . . : 436228182
DHCPv6 Client DUID. . . . . . . . : 00-01-00-01-13-5A-D4-9B-00-04-4B-02-0B-46

DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : fec0:0:0:ffff::1%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::2%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::3%1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Ethernet adapter VMware Network Adapter VMnet8:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : VMware Virtual Ethernet Adapter for VMnet
8
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-50-56-C0-00-08
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::d9d8:64ef:bd8c:e63f%20(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.147.1(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . :
DHCPv6 IAID . . . . . . . . . . . : 453005398
DHCPv6 Client DUID. . . . . . . . : 00-01-00-01-13-5A-D4-9B-00-04-4B-02-0B-46

DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : fec0:0:0:ffff::1%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::2%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::3%1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Tunnel adapter isatap.{BDE53B12-F485-4F62-873C-E96670C0441B}:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 12:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter isatap.{74F83B49-60AD-40E9-9719-393C4C03B773}:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter #2
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter isatap.{63F0064E-5197-4DE7-AF9A-D17B1089B684}:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter #3
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter isatap.{23715B3F-C199-434D-BFD7-5025A9C080CD}:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter #4
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

C:\Users\Kyle>

192.168.1.1 is the IP I use to access the Netgear Router.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:35 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:04 am
Posts: 91
If "A" is connected to "B" via "B"'s WAN port, then any device connected to "A" can't access anything behind "B" due to "B"'s firewall. That's just basic router configuration. As configured, all clients need to be connected to "B", wired or wireless.

The better architecture is to have the routers exchange places. Have the FIOS router first, then the Verizon behind it (LAN to LAN, never use the Verizon's WAN port) merely for additional ports (and have its DHCP server disabled as well).

The way you have it now (if I have the picture right), you've placed network ports ahead of the FIOS router (and thus outside the local network, at least the one behind the FIOS), and now want to come back into that local network via the (WAN) as if you were always part of that local network. You can't do that. Once you're on the WAN side of any router, you're locked out from it's local network due to the firewall!


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:41 pm 
Thunderbird
Thunderbird

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:00 am
Posts: 928
eibgrad wrote:
The better architecture is to have the routers exchange places. Have the FIOS router first, then the Verizon behind it (LAN to LAN, never use the Verizon's WAN port) merely for additional ports (and have its DHCP server disabled as well).


I don't use Verizon's WAN port, I use Netgear's WAN port, and I can't switch the router's places because the Verizon one has the Coax "port" which I need for the Internet to work. Unless I'm missing what you're saying. :? Can you explain a little more please?

You're saying I should just do straight LAN to LAN?


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:52 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:04 am
Posts: 91
Kyl3 wrote:
eibgrad wrote:
The better architecture is to have the routers exchange places. Have the FIOS router first, then the Verizon behind it (LAN to LAN, never use the Verizon's WAN port) merely for additional ports (and have its DHCP server disabled as well).


I don't use Verizon's WAN port, and I can't switch the router's places because the Verizon one has the Coax "port" which I need for the Internet to work. Unless I'm missing what you're saying. :? Can you explain a little more please?


Well let's back up a second. I assume this is FIOS broadband, right? Wouldn't FIOS use the FIOS router, or are you saying that FIOS actually uses a COAX connection for the broadband connection via the Verizon, then fronts it w/ a standard router they just call their FIOS router. I don't know, I've never used FIOS.

If that's the case, then fine, leave it that way. But those ports on the Verizon shouldn't be used except to connect to the FIOS. You can't connect anything else to the Verizon even though it's tempting since those ports are on the WAN side of the FIOS!

This is no different than someone who has a dsl modem+router, then wants to continuing using it as the modem, put substitute their own router. You place the dsl modem+router in bridge mode, then patch it to your own router, LAN to WAN, respectively. But once you do, those other LAN ports on the dsl modem+router are OFF LIMITS! At least if you expect to gain access back into your local network. If you were to use those ports, any DHCP requests would go to the ISP, not your router. IOW, as configured, you have to treat the Verizon exactly as you initially described it -- as a MODEM! But you violated your own statement when you decided to grab some of its LAN ports for extending your local network. NO NO!


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:57 pm 
Million Club [PC]*
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:29 pm
Posts: 4914
Location: Motor City, folding for Mom
Kyle, you need a switch - there's just no way around it.

As eibgrad said, you can't connect a device to the FiOS router, and expect said device to be able to talk to anything connected to the Netgear router - the basic functionality of a router makes this impossible (unless you set it up in AP-only mode, which disables all routing functions. Not what you wanted....)
And, you're out of ports on the Netgear router.
The only fix for this is to add ports to your chosen router - that's what a switch is for.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:02 pm 
8086
8086

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:04 am
Posts: 91
cup wrote:
Kyle, you need a switch - there's just no way around it.

As eibgrad said, you can't connect a device to the FiOS router, and expect said device to be able to talk to anything connected to the Netgear router - the basic functionality of a router makes this impossible (unless you set it up in AP-only mode, which disables all routing functions. Not what you wanted....)
And, you're out of ports on the Netgear router.
The only fix for this is to add ports to your chosen router - that's what a switch is for.


Exactly. Never, ever use any of the other LAN ports on the Verizon, it's just a modem now. Treat it as such and ignore the fact it has open LAN ports. If you want to extend your network, it MUST always be done from the FIOS router using additional switches, wireless APs, even routers if you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Networking + 2 routers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:09 pm 
Thunderbird
Thunderbird

Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:00 am
Posts: 928
eibgrad wrote:
cup wrote:
Kyle, you need a switch - there's just no way around it.

As eibgrad said, you can't connect a device to the FiOS router, and expect said device to be able to talk to anything connected to the Netgear router - the basic functionality of a router makes this impossible (unless you set it up in AP-only mode, which disables all routing functions. Not what you wanted....)
And, you're out of ports on the Netgear router.
The only fix for this is to add ports to your chosen router - that's what a switch is for.


Exactly. Never, ever use any of the other LAN ports on the Verizon, it's just a modem now. Treat it as such and ignore the fact it has open LAN ports. If you want to extend your network, it MUST always be done from the FIOS router using additional switches, wireless APs, even routers if you want.

So just buy a switch and connect it to a LAN port in my Netgear router and go from there? Seems simple enough. Thanks guys. :)


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