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 Post subject: Re: So I was going through the interpipes the other day...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:47 pm 
Coppermine
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Gadget wrote:
As for the other links, I'm not going to bother (besides, the first one is obviously the original link). People talk trash about Java because they know it will bring hits. Plain and simple. I could find just as many pages disparaging C++.


The search terms I used were never actively looking for "Java Sucks" material.

The original link used the search term,
"computer science enrollment". THIS IS IMPORTANT. Again, I did not actively use search terms patterned for disparaging JAVA remarks.

On the FIRST page, was a rant on Java. FIRST page on google. That means Google's algorithms scored it very high.

I just thought it was interesting, and here we go roundy roundy. LOL. I specifically targeted you Java Evangelists because you are in fact being..well, evangelical. I'm just keeping things nice and balanced.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:55 pm 
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FWIW, I think the link mentioned was on /.'s front page.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:59 pm 
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kkith wrote:
Gadget wrote:
Kybo_Ren wrote:
smartcat99s wrote:
At my school, they teach Java to 1st semester students, then switch them to C++. I find that a reasonable compromise.

I find that a useless compromise. They'll be using C++ and assembly for the rest of the program, why waste valuable time that could be used in boosting familiarity with C++?

They'll be using assembly and C++ for the rest of the program

Really? Here is a list of actual non-introductory courses offered at one of the top universities in the nation, please explain to me why you feel C++ is the prefered language for projects in these courses:

Implementation of Algorithms
Introduction to Computer Graphics
Introduction to Artificial Intelligence
Computer Architecture
Web Programming
Database Theory
Theory of Programming Languages
Analysis of Algorithms
Computational Geometry
Numerical Analysis
Analysis of Network Structures
Theory of Computation
Introduction to Robotics
Nano-robotics


Reference please.

References to what? The school? USC.


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 Post subject: Re: So I was going through the interpipes the other day...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:24 pm 
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kkith wrote:
Gadget wrote:
As for the other links, I'm not going to bother (besides, the first one is obviously the original link). People talk trash about Java because they know it will bring hits. Plain and simple. I could find just as many pages disparaging C++.


The search terms I used were never actively looking for "Java Sucks" material.

The original link used the search term,
"computer science enrollment". THIS IS IMPORTANT. Again, I did not actively use search terms patterned for disparaging JAVA remarks.

On the FIRST page, was a rant on Java. FIRST page on google. That means Google's algorithms scored it very high.

I just thought it was interesting, and here we go roundy roundy. LOL. I specifically targeted you Java Evangelists because you are in fact being..well, evangelical. I'm just keeping things nice and balanced.

Again, people talk trash about Java because it brings in hits. I don't really care how you found the page and the fact that it was slashdotted probably just means that the professor or one of his students submitted it to slashdot. It doesn't make his 'swiss cheese has holes' arguement any better.


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 Post subject: Re: So I was going through the interpipes the other day...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:19 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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do you get a kick out of being a total d-bag? I mean, seriously, do you really?

You can dumb down a program with any language. It's not the language to blame, it's the curriculum. I know of a college (name will remain anonymous) that started their CS students in C++. Statistically speaking, their students have the lowest success rate at finding a job - 1/10, specifically. They didn't use Java but why such a low success rate? Because the program didn't focus enough on in-depth problem solving, they didn't teach the language in an in-depth manner and professors were to lenient. Is C++ to blame? No.

This is a good quote:
Quote:
They’ve responded, he claims, by dumbing down programs, hoping to make them more accessible and popular. Aspects of curriculum that are too demanding, or perceived as tedious, are downplayed in favor of simplified material that attracts a larger enrollment. This effort is counterproductive, Dewar says.


The author even recognizes that it is the curriculum that's to blame. Granted, Java has all of the cool, graphical libraries that the author blames it on. However, to reduce Java to just pretty libraries is pretty idiotic and is nothing more than a part-to-whole fallacy. Java has TONS of libraries; everything from the Reflection API's, remoting, and such. You could do some pretty powerful, complex things with Java - including building pretty GUI graphics and building scalable Enterprise systems. I've seen it done, I'm more than impressed with Java's power.

You obviously do not see the power of Java. I have friends who work for financial services company; they've built smart-trading systems that trade autonomously with no input necessary. It trades thousands of dollars a day on the financial markets, buying/selling contracts, options, and futures. Oh yeah, it's built in Java.

I'll be the last to say that you're friggin' moron with no clue as to how the real world works.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:53 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000*
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Wow... I guess you kept the flame thrower in proper working order. =)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:03 pm 
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Gadget wrote:
Wow... I guess you kept the flame thrower in proper working order. =)


Proper working order? I upgraded it a bit, more distance and far more lethan than before. ;P

I just can't stand his ignorant statements anymore. Now that I've had the opportunity to work with some incredibly brilliant people in the industry, I've seen really complex problems solved using .NET or Java.

Microsoft and Sun weren't kidding around when they built their respective products. Sure, it's a high level language, but it's so flexible and the tools so robust that I don't see any reasons why people slam Java nor C#. You can still go down to the basics by integrating platform specific code against your C#/Java apps. They knew specific paradigms and addressed it.

Then again, a good curriculum will address the fundamentals of Computer Science. I think kkith needs a dose of real life, but he's too busy living in la-la land to even realize the reality of things.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:49 am 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
Then again, a good curriculum will address the fundamentals of Computer Science.


+1

I think the biggest thing I have for starting a program with a high level OOP language, is that it handles a lot for you. Granted, this is the biggest advantage those languages have. I just think that the curriculum should be hitting those fundamentals (memory operations, pointers, etc) which IMHO is best done with a lower high-level language like C/C++. Java should be taught, as well as .NET. Maybe like an intro to other languages or something. Cover C#, Java, and something else. Have a Sophomore and Junior level class in that. You can bundle data structures and other sorts of logic/problem solving with those classes and use the languages as the tools to do it.

I just think that you need to be exposed to the nitty gritty early on, as that is what is going to make you successful. It is part curriculum and part language choice for those first two programming classes. I just think it would be difficult to teach pointers and memory operations with Java or .NET.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:29 am 
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CrashTECH wrote:
+1

I think the biggest thing I have for starting a program with a high level OOP language, is that it handles a lot for you. Granted, this is the biggest advantage those languages have. I just think that the curriculum should be hitting those fundamentals (memory operations, pointers, etc) which IMHO is best done with a lower high-level language like C/C++. Java should be taught, as well as .NET. Maybe like an intro to other languages or something. Cover C#, Java, and something else. Have a Sophomore and Junior level class in that. You can bundle data structures and other sorts of logic/problem solving with those classes and use the languages as the tools to do it.


You have to teach lower level languages, yes, I agree. But remember that a CS curriculum will be jam packed with math classes and other varietals. They are tough, demanding courses (as they should be, University is supposed to be demanding), and I don't see why anyone shouldn't graduate College with at least 2 languages under their belt.

CrashTECH wrote:
[
I just think it would be difficult to teach pointers and memory operations with Java or .NET.

Not really, it's actually good to use java/C# to teach about effective memory management, and scope. The Garbage Collection mechanism in Java/.NET are incredibly sophisticated, there's a lot you can learn from how their Garbage Collection is optimized to deal with memory management in different conditions.

If you're just talking about allocating and deallocating pointers, that's easy stuff (new and delete in C++). What counts is effective memory management, in my opinion.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. .NET also has dynamic compilation services through CodeDom. You can create smart libraries that can generate C#/VB.NET code on the fly (during run-time) and compile them.

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/dotnet/Dy ... ndRun.aspx
http://www.developerfusion.co.uk/show/4529/3/

These are good topics for compiler theory and such. ;P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:20 am 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
You have to teach lower level languages, yes, I agree. But remember that a CS curriculum will be jam packed with math classes and other varietals. They are tough, demanding courses (as they should be, University is supposed to be demanding), and I don't see why anyone shouldn't graduate College with at least 2 languages under their belt.
<-- CS&E major. I know all about the math stuff. I don't see WHY graduates can't be exposed to several languages. I am going to graduate with C/C++, C#, Assembly, LISP, and a smattering of Java.

I knew VB and Basic before I started the program, so I don't count those as languages I learned while in school.

DJSPIN80 wrote:
Not really, it's actually good to use java/C# to teach about effective memory management, and scope. The Garbage Collection mechanism in Java/.NET are incredibly sophisticated, there's a lot you can learn from how their Garbage Collection is optimized to deal with memory management in different conditions.

If you're just talking about allocating and deallocating pointers, that's easy stuff (new and delete in C++). What counts is effective memory management, in my opinion.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. .NET also has dynamic compilation services through CodeDom. You can create smart libraries that can generate C#/VB.NET code on the fly (during run-time) and compile them.

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/dotnet/Dy ... ndRun.aspx
http://www.developerfusion.co.uk/show/4529/3/

These are good topics for compiler theory and such. ;P
While I agree you should learn about how Java/.NET handle memory and garbage collection, it isn't the same as having to dereference the memory yourself. It also isn't perfect so sometimes knowing how to really handle it yourself is better, however I agree with you. I guess I think maybe you should have a combination of the lower high level and something like Java / .Net. You would then be getting 2-3 languages (you HAVE to learn assembly if you are in my program, but a straight CS might not, as it doesn't include all of the electronics aspects).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:36 pm 
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CrashTECH wrote:
<-- CS&E major. I know all about the math stuff. I don't see WHY graduates can't be exposed to several languages. I am going to graduate with C/C++, C#, Assembly, LISP, and a smattering of Java.


I graduated with PHP, SQL and C++ under my belt. I knew a smattering of C# and ended up making a career out of it. I actually knew a smatter of java as well, but decided not to make a career out of it. ;P

You're right, even if the knowledge is trivial, it lessens training time nonetheless. I know a lot of firms who hire entry level positions will most likely favor someone who's already familiar with the language they use. It's less training time for employees, which translates to getting the new hire onto the product, faster.

CrashTECH wrote:
While I agree you should learn about how Java/.NET handle memory and garbage collection, it isn't the same as having to dereference the memory yourself. It also isn't perfect so sometimes knowing how to really handle it yourself is better, however I agree with you. I guess I think maybe you should have a combination of the lower high level and something like Java / .Net. You would then be getting 2-3 languages (you HAVE to learn assembly if you are in my program, but a straight CS might not, as it doesn't include all of the electronics aspects).


I didn't mean to reduce the importance of learning C/C++, one still has to write code because, well, practice is important. Practice makes perfect, so yes, they still have to implement it. Anyways, what I meant to say was that in advanced courses where memory management is taught, they can look at how Java/.NET implement their memory management and what optimizations/tricks it uses. Go figure you already know memory management in C++, might as well make it better.

Oh, and I'm straight CS and I learned assembly. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:11 am 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
I graduated with PHP, SQL and C++ under my belt. I knew a smattering of C# and ended up making a career out of it. I actually knew a smatter of java as well, but decided not to make a career out of it. .
Doh! I forgot about knowing some PHP and SQL. I had those too. :) I think the more languages you can pick up while in school, even if you have a basic understanding you are better off in the long run. You have more experience learning the languages etc.

DJSPIN80 wrote:
I didn't mean to reduce the importance of learning C/C++, one still has to write code because, well, practice is important. Practice makes perfect, so yes, they still have to implement it. Anyways, what I meant to say was that in advanced courses where memory management is taught, they can look at how Java/.NET implement their memory management and what optimizations/tricks it uses. Go figure you already know memory management in C++, might as well make it better.

Oh, and I'm straight CS and I learned assembly. :)
Oh, I wasn't trying to say that you were but I really think you should start with it because you get a better understanding of the memory and how it works and then you will know what is going on with the higher level.


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