Maximum PC

The search terms I used were never actively looking for "Java Sucks" material.

The original link used the search term,
"computer science enrollment". THIS IS IMPORTANT. Again, I did not actively use search terms patterned for disparaging JAVA remarks.

On the FIRST page, was a rant on Java. FIRST page on google. That means Google's algorithms scored it very high.

I just thought it was interesting, and here we go roundy roundy. LOL. I specifically targeted you Java Evangelists because you are in fact being..well, evangelical. I'm just keeping things nice and balanced.

FWIW, I think the link mentioned was on /.'s front page.

References to what? The school? USC.

Again, people talk trash about Java because it brings in hits. I don't really care how you found the page and the fact that it was slashdotted probably just means that the professor or one of his students submitted it to slashdot. It doesn't make his 'swiss cheese has holes' arguement any better.

do you get a kick out of being a total d-bag? I mean, seriously, do you really?

You can dumb down a program with any language. It's not the language to blame, it's the curriculum. I know of a college (name will remain anonymous) that started their CS students in C++. Statistically speaking, their students have the lowest success rate at finding a job - 1/10, specifically. They didn't use Java but why such a low success rate? Because the program didn't focus enough on in-depth problem solving, they didn't teach the language in an in-depth manner and professors were to lenient. Is C++ to blame? No.

This is a good quote:


The author even recognizes that it is the curriculum that's to blame. Granted, Java has all of the cool, graphical libraries that the author blames it on. However, to reduce Java to just pretty libraries is pretty idiotic and is nothing more than a part-to-whole fallacy. Java has TONS of libraries; everything from the Reflection API's, remoting, and such. You could do some pretty powerful, complex things with Java - including building pretty GUI graphics and building scalable Enterprise systems. I've seen it done, I'm more than impressed with Java's power.

You obviously do not see the power of Java. I have friends who work for financial services company; they've built smart-trading systems that trade autonomously with no input necessary. It trades thousands of dollars a day on the financial markets, buying/selling contracts, options, and futures. Oh yeah, it's built in Java.

I'll be the last to say that you're friggin' moron with no clue as to how the real world works.

Wow... I guess you kept the flame thrower in proper working order. =)

Proper working order? I upgraded it a bit, more distance and far more lethan than before. ;P

I just can't stand his ignorant statements anymore. Now that I've had the opportunity to work with some incredibly brilliant people in the industry, I've seen really complex problems solved using .NET or Java.

Microsoft and Sun weren't kidding around when they built their respective products. Sure, it's a high level language, but it's so flexible and the tools so robust that I don't see any reasons why people slam Java nor C#. You can still go down to the basics by integrating platform specific code against your C#/Java apps. They knew specific paradigms and addressed it.

Then again, a good curriculum will address the fundamentals of Computer Science. I think kkith needs a dose of real life, but he's too busy living in la-la land to even realize the reality of things.

+1

I think the biggest thing I have for starting a program with a high level OOP language, is that it handles a lot for you. Granted, this is the biggest advantage those languages have. I just think that the curriculum should be hitting those fundamentals (memory operations, pointers, etc) which IMHO is best done with a lower high-level language like C/C++. Java should be taught, as well as .NET. Maybe like an intro to other languages or something. Cover C#, Java, and something else. Have a Sophomore and Junior level class in that. You can bundle data structures and other sorts of logic/problem solving with those classes and use the languages as the tools to do it.

I just think that you need to be exposed to the nitty gritty early on, as that is what is going to make you successful. It is part curriculum and part language choice for those first two programming classes. I just think it would be difficult to teach pointers and memory operations with Java or .NET.

You have to teach lower level languages, yes, I agree. But remember that a CS curriculum will be jam packed with math classes and other varietals. They are tough, demanding courses (as they should be, University is supposed to be demanding), and I don't see why anyone shouldn't graduate College with at least 2 languages under their belt.


Not really, it's actually good to use java/C# to teach about effective memory management, and scope. The Garbage Collection mechanism in Java/.NET are incredibly sophisticated, there's a lot you can learn from how their Garbage Collection is optimized to deal with memory management in different conditions.

If you're just talking about allocating and deallocating pointers, that's easy stuff (new and delete in C++). What counts is effective memory management, in my opinion.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. .NET also has dynamic compilation services through CodeDom. You can create smart libraries that can generate C#/VB.NET code on the fly (during run-time) and compile them.

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/dotnet/Dy ... ndRun.aspx
http://www.developerfusion.co.uk/show/4529/3/

These are good topics for compiler theory and such. ;P

<-- CS&E major. I know all about the math stuff. I don't see WHY graduates can't be exposed to several languages. I am going to graduate with C/C++, C#, Assembly, LISP, and a smattering of Java.

I knew VB and Basic before I started the program, so I don't count those as languages I learned while in school.

While I agree you should learn about how Java/.NET handle memory and garbage collection, it isn't the same as having to dereference the memory yourself. It also isn't perfect so sometimes knowing how to really handle it yourself is better, however I agree with you. I guess I think maybe you should have a combination of the lower high level and something like Java / .Net. You would then be getting 2-3 languages (you HAVE to learn assembly if you are in my program, but a straight CS might not, as it doesn't include all of the electronics aspects).

I graduated with PHP, SQL and C++ under my belt. I knew a smattering of C# and ended up making a career out of it. I actually knew a smatter of java as well, but decided not to make a career out of it. ;P

You're right, even if the knowledge is trivial, it lessens training time nonetheless. I know a lot of firms who hire entry level positions will most likely favor someone who's already familiar with the language they use. It's less training time for employees, which translates to getting the new hire onto the product, faster.



I didn't mean to reduce the importance of learning C/C++, one still has to write code because, well, practice is important. Practice makes perfect, so yes, they still have to implement it. Anyways, what I meant to say was that in advanced courses where memory management is taught, they can look at how Java/.NET implement their memory management and what optimizations/tricks it uses. Go figure you already know memory management in C++, might as well make it better.

Oh, and I'm straight CS and I learned assembly.

Doh! I forgot about knowing some PHP and SQL. I had those too. I think the more languages you can pick up while in school, even if you have a basic understanding you are better off in the long run. You have more experience learning the languages etc.

Oh, I wasn't trying to say that you were but I really think you should start with it because you get a better understanding of the memory and how it works and then you will know what is going on with the higher level.