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 Post subject: So I was going through the interpipes the other day...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:21 am 
Coppermine
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And did a search on these keywords:
"computer science enrollment"
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=com ... a=N&tab=wn

I found an interesting article...

Here is a quote:
"To sum up Dewar’s argument: today’s college computer science programs aren’t rigorous enough, and don’t promote in-depth thinking and problem solving. Instead, in an effort to boost enrollment, CS programs focus on easily accessible curricula, and so fail to prepare students to compete with their international peers. "

I agree with Dewar's argument. CS is mathematical and theoretical, not about knowing programming languages. CS is about problem solving.

The best part of the article however...
"One of the most ill-considered steps that universities took was to adopt Java as the most widely used language in introductory programming courses, Dewar says. Driving this change was a desire to make CS programs more popular."


Bwahahahaha. I could not agree with him more. Java makes you STUPID!!!11!!

Read it and weep Java suckas! I'm sure you'll have your insignificant pro-Java opinions. Guys like you keep my salary inflated! Thanks for being part of the sheep.

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career ... hp/3722876


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:18 am 
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Do you use Firefox? Firefox uses Java. Java is built in to many applications you use. Blu-Ray's interface uses Java.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:37 am 
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linuxcrazy wrote:
Do you use Firefox? Firefox uses Java. Java is built in to many applications you use. Blu-Ray's interface uses Java.
But that doesn't mean it is a good intro language for CS programs... I happen to agree that java shouldn't be the intro language. That doesn't mean it is a bad language by any means.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:51 pm 
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linuxcrazy wrote:
Do you use Firefox? Firefox uses Java.


NO.

Just NO.

Firefox is written in C++, not Java. Java in Firefox is completely optional, and is not part of the default install (it's a plugin provided by sun).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:10 pm 
Coppermine
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Damn, I'm gonna have to change tactics. Noone gets upset at my Java flames anymore. I'll have to find entertainment elsewhere. Although of course the java junkies haven't read this thread yet :P


Last edited by kkith on Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:15 pm 
Coppermine
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linuxcrazy wrote:
Do you use Firefox? Firefox uses Java. Java is built in to many applications you use. Blu-Ray's interface uses Java.


Yay? You may be linuxcrazy, but I'm gonna guess you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to programming. Besides, desktop apps and interfaces normally don't have to deal with scalability issues...boring.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:57 pm 
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At my school, they teach Java to 1st semester students, then switch them to C++. I find that a reasonable compromise.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:15 pm 
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smartcat99s wrote:
At my school, they teach Java to 1st semester students, then switch them to C++. I find that a reasonable compromise.

I find that a useless compromise. They'll be using C++ and assembly for the rest of the program, why waste valuable time that could be used in boosting familiarity with C++?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:35 pm 
Coppermine
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I'm okay with school's whose CS cirriculum goes to shit, it keeps my salary inflated.
Code:
if (num_coders_with_skills > THRESHHOLD) {
    kkith->salary -= (INFLATED_MARKET_VALUE - REAL_MARKET_VALUE);
    if (kkith->salary < KKITH_THRESHHOLD) {
         kkith->find_new_job(KKITH_THRESSHOLD);
    }
}


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:43 pm 
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smartcat99s wrote:
linuxcrazy wrote:
Do you use Firefox? Firefox uses Java.


NO.

Just NO.

Firefox is written in C++, not Java. Java in Firefox is completely optional, and is not part of the default install (it's a plugin provided by sun).

Are you sure about this? SpiderMonkey is written in C and all of the Firefox build instructions (that I've seen) refer to gcc, not g++. I'm sort of getting the feeling that Firefox is written in C, not C++.

Firefox uses Java.
And NO. Firefox does use Java. The original poster never said anything about Firefox being written in Java.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:44 pm 
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kkith wrote:
linuxcrazy wrote:
Do you use Firefox? Firefox uses Java. Java is built in to many applications you use. Blu-Ray's interface uses Java.


Yay? You may be linuxcrazy, but I'm gonna guess you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to programming.

A mirror into my soul.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:56 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000*
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Kybo_Ren wrote:
smartcat99s wrote:
At my school, they teach Java to 1st semester students, then switch them to C++. I find that a reasonable compromise.

I find that a useless compromise. They'll be using C++ and assembly for the rest of the program, why waste valuable time that could be used in boosting familiarity with C++?

They'll be using assembly and C++ for the rest of the program

Really? Here is a list of actual non-introductory courses offered at one of the top universities in the nation, please explain to me why you feel C++ is the prefered language for projects in these courses:

Implementation of Algorithms
Introduction to Computer Graphics
Introduction to Artificial Intelligence
Computer Architecture
Web Programming
Database Theory
Theory of Programming Languages
Analysis of Algorithms
Computational Geometry
Numerical Analysis
Analysis of Network Structures
Theory of Computation
Introduction to Robotics
Nano-robotics


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 Post subject: Re: So I was going through the interpipes the other day...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:25 pm 
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kkith wrote:
The best part of the article however...
"One of the most ill-considered steps that universities took was to adopt Java as the most widely used language in introductory programming courses, Dewar says. Driving this change was a desire to make CS programs more popular."


Bwahahahaha. I could not agree with him more. Java makes you STUPID!!!11!!

Clearly, Java isn't the only thing producing stupid people these days.

The main premise of the article is correct: US computer science programs are too lenient; and international programs are turning out better programmers and computer scientists. However, placing the blame on a popular programming language is IMO just another pathetic attempt to gather hits. Look at how utterly weak his arguments really are...

If students are just piecing together programs from existing Java libs, then make them write their own data structures and libs.
Apparently, web apps and GUIs are also a big problem, well, the last time I checked you can write command line apps in Java.
Many of the safety features in Ada are available in Java. If students are not required to use them, is it really the fault of the Java language?
For the record, I just cannot buy into the idea that any school teaches a computer architecture course in Java. Sorry, I’ve never seen it and won’t believe it until I do.

Java is simply the scapegoat. Place the blame where it belongs, which is on the people setting the curriculums – the professors. They decide course content, not Sun Microsystems. Placing the blame on a programming language is bullshit -- plain and simple.

What is most ironic is that he is talking about quite a few of you (even those with with jobs or claiming to have a job) and you don’t seem to realize it. High-level membership in the C++ fanboi club doesn’t make you smarter or a better programmer. Sorry. Just look at this forum. I can pose simple problems that require a very limited knowledge of basic algorithmic methods and nobody seems to know how to solve them. In fact, I would bet money that Adak and Manta, neither of whom have a degree in CS, could beat most of the CS students and graduates here in a programming contest. Their methods might be ad-hoc, but they often find a way.

Some of you might argue that “I’m much more into systems than computation/algorithmsâ€


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 Post subject: Re: So I was going through the interpipes the other day...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:14 pm 
Coppermine
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Gadget wrote:
Placing the blame on a programming language is bullshit -- plain and simple.


Wrong. By your argument then BASIC could be used to teach programming in colleges.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:51 am 
Coppermine
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It appears others have similar views...

http://www.google.com/search?q=killed+software+engineer


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:54 am 
Coppermine
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Someone else has bitched about this...
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ ... hools.html

Here is a good one...
Quote:
I have never met anyone who can do Scheme, Haskell, and C pointers who can't pick up Java in two days, and create better Java code than people with five years of experience in Java, but try explaining that to the average HR drone.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:11 am 
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I think Java is a great language, but it isn't one that I would suggest that you start programming with it in college. I think that you miss out on a lot of the memory management, etc. Java does a lot of things for you, it is multi-platform, both which are great things for rapid development and making things widely available. But for learning the nitty gritty of CS concepts, it probably isn't a great place to start.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:53 am 
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kkith wrote:
Damn, I'm gonna have to change tactics. Noone gets upset at my Java flames anymore. I'll have to find entertainment elsewhere. Although of course the java junkies haven't read this thread yet :P


You are going to have to change tactics if you wish to continue posting in this forum.

Stop being a dick. I'm speaking in particular of your response in the recent excel thread. I'm also speaking about your deliberate attempts to provoke flames. Consider this a formal warning: stop being an asshole.


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 Post subject: Re: So I was going through the interpipes the other day...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:27 am 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000*
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kkith wrote:
Gadget wrote:
Placing the blame on a programming language is bullshit -- plain and simple.


Wrong. By your argument then BASIC could be used to teach programming in colleges.

BASIC has been used to teach programming at several colleges.

Regarding Java, if you were to read the update or the comments by several other professors that essentially agree with me, you'd realize that the original professor basically recanted what he said about Java. I realize that single celled organisms have trouble with cognitive processes, so I'll make the hole in his arguement so big that even you won't be able to miss it.

How come Java is only harming American computer science students? It isn't as if top colleges in other countries aren't using it as a teaching language! Is it the combination of Java and our lat and long that is causing all of the trouble?

As for the other links, I'm not going to bother (besides, the first one is obviously the original link). People talk trash about Java because they know it will bring hits. Plain and simple. I could find just as many pages disparaging C++.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:41 pm 
Coppermine
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Gadget wrote:
Kybo_Ren wrote:
smartcat99s wrote:
At my school, they teach Java to 1st semester students, then switch them to C++. I find that a reasonable compromise.

I find that a useless compromise. They'll be using C++ and assembly for the rest of the program, why waste valuable time that could be used in boosting familiarity with C++?

They'll be using assembly and C++ for the rest of the program

Really? Here is a list of actual non-introductory courses offered at one of the top universities in the nation, please explain to me why you feel C++ is the prefered language for projects in these courses:

Implementation of Algorithms
Introduction to Computer Graphics
Introduction to Artificial Intelligence
Computer Architecture
Web Programming
Database Theory
Theory of Programming Languages
Analysis of Algorithms
Computational Geometry
Numerical Analysis
Analysis of Network Structures
Theory of Computation
Introduction to Robotics
Nano-robotics


Reference please.


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