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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:40 am 
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Wolfmann wrote:

Perl, VBscipt, JavaScript, Php, HTML, XML and the like are not programming languages. They're interpreted or scripted languages which do not rely on compilation - which in my opinion is a qualifer to be a "programming" language.



First off VB is a language - just not one of choice for most folks. I don't think it was designed specifically for bussiness - I just think it works well there.

Under your definition of "language" BASIC would not be a language - and it is (or was).

Basically, that definition is fast becoming out of date and never really should have been in place to begin with. Python is a programming language - and yet it does not need to be compiled to run.

There has to be a better definition than that oh so popular and oh so full of holes one.

Manta


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:25 am 
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MantaBase wrote:
Wolfmann wrote:

Perl, VBscipt, JavaScript, Php, HTML, XML and the like are not programming languages. They're interpreted or scripted languages which do not rely on compilation - which in my opinion is a qualifer to be a "programming" language.



First off VB is a language - just not one of choice for most folks. I don't think it was designed specifically for bussiness - I just think it works well there.

Under your definition of "language" BASIC would not be a language - and it is (or was).

Basically, that definition is fast becoming out of date and never really should have been in place to begin with. Python is a programming language - and yet it does not need to be compiled to run.

There has to be a better definition than that oh so popular and oh so full of holes one.

Manta


1. VB was created as a business language by Microsoft And it is a VERY popular language in fact you could argue that the majority of programmers out there write in VB as their primary language. I have statistic, but not off the top of my head.

I will stand by the assertian that a true programming language needs to be compiled. It's not as shallow as a definition as you think either. Besides I used compiling as a qualifier...there are many other qualifiers as inclusion for a "programming language".


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:58 am 
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Wolfmann wrote:
Real men program in Assembler.

Since I can't link to a specific message in another thread, I'll quote myself....

Gadget wrote:
Pet peeve. Assembler != assembly language.

wikipedia wrote:
An assembler is a computer program for translating assembly language — essentially, a mnemonic representation of machine language — into object code. A cross assembler (see cross compiler) produces code for one processor, but runs on another.

Don't any of you ever say assembler like that again! :twisted:
/me flings throwing knife at VB book

Oh, bullseye - ok, much better now. 8)



Wolfmann wrote:
Perl, VBscipt, JavaScript, Php, HTML, XML and the like are not programming languages. They're interpreted or scripted languages which do not rely on compilation - which in my opinion is a qualifer to be a "programming" language.

VB is a programming language - just not a very well respected one (notice, I didn't say that people who program in VB are programmers!). Perl and Php are also programming languages. If interpretation vs compilation is the main criteria, you would need to remove such notable languages as Python, Basic, Java (well, at least part of the time... :)), and many other languages, including Lisp, which is very arguably the first and greatest programming language.

I try to keep this one simple - can I write a stand-alone program? If so, programming lanugage.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:13 am 
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Wolfmann wrote:

1. VB was created as a business language by Microsoft And it is a VERY popular language in fact you could argue that the majority of programmers out there write in VB as their primary language. I have statistic, but not off the top of my head.

I will stand by the assertian that a true programming language needs to be compiled. It's not as shallow as a definition as you think either. Besides I used compiling as a qualifier...there are many other qualifiers as inclusion for a "programming language".


1. It was not. It was designed and first marketed as the first "Personal Programming" language. Just because its perfect for bussiness doesn't mean that alone is what it was made for. Its used in many other fields besides bussiness. MS may now spin it as that - and thats fine - its perfect for that environment. But that is not its history. Truth be told, it was designed to sell more boxes of Windows :)

You are probably right on the stat - I didn't think about it very long. My Bad.

As for your definition - Like I said - its popular but has enough exceptions to be out of date. Any language used to write a program is a programming language. Thus HTML does not qualify - its a language - but not a programing language. Nor XML. But Basic and VB do as well as Python and Java and C++.

Thats just my opinion and thats what I call them. I know many agree with yours.

Manta


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:17 am 
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Wolfmann wrote:
Real men program in Assembler. Real men wear leather. And real men go to places where the men are men, and the sheep are nervous. ;-)


:lol: I guess I'm a real man since I coded in Assembly.

Wolfmann wrote:
VB is as much a programming languages as C++, it's simply it's context- how it's used. VB is a buisness language, used for fast development of business applications and projects where the people aren't required to know great deals about anything other than business process.


Not really, VB, to me, is just a money making tool for Microsoft. There really isn't anything cool that VB offers other than simplified Windows development. It's not cross platform (not in the truest sense, .NET is still buggy on Linux), and VB code is verbose and difficult to read (gives me a headache). Not to mention the fact that it took VB years to reach OOP, many languages were already OOP.

Java is a much better, more robust business language. It's cross platform, JDBC is really robust, and it's supports a lot of other RDBMS' out there. ADO.NET - as robust as it is - is still limited in its support, it's only true support is Microsoft SQL Server, getting MySQL, PostgreSQL, Interbase/Firebird support is pretty shoddy. JDBC doesn't have that problem.

Wolfmann wrote:
C++ is a systems language that deals with the core root of how systems operate. It is the technology in support of the business process, not the process itself.


Actually, this is not true anymore. If you look at C++, there are some major players that put the acronym RAD into C++. wxWindows is a cross-platform, Open Source GUI API for C++, the same goes for Qt, and GTK+. These API's put the power of C++ along with better process management. Heck, the design is a lot better than using C++ w/ MFC, and a lot simpler than using C++.NET.

Wolfmann wrote:
Perl, VBscipt, JavaScript, Php, HTML, XML and the like are not programming languages. They're interpreted or scripted languages which do not rely on compilation - which in my opinion is a qualifer to be a "programming" language.


I'd sayt his is a fallacy. Scripted languages no less languages than their compiled counterparts. However, they all follow the fundamental principles of a programming language: sequential initialization of instructions. They all do what they're told, hence even why PHP is a programming language. However, HTML and XML aren't, HTML is used for page layout and XML is for meta-data. PHP, Perl, VBScripts, Javascript, Python, Ruby, and heck, even Scheme are all programming languages.

Wolfmann wrote:
If VB isn't a programming language than neither is COBOL. heh,heh...well, there is some debate there as well.


That was my joke to strict VB-only developers. I've seen VB code and it's so terse to read. I can't stand the fact that I used to write code for VB, I only did it for a grade, so at the end I was happy that I was done with. Plus VB is not as flexible, it's a very limited language so to speak. VB.NET expands that flexibility, but it still within the confines of the .NET framework.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:57 am 
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MantaBase wrote:
Just because its perfect for bussiness doesn't mean that alone is what it was made for.


OMG - we're going to have to kill you now!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:23 pm 
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As I said...real men code in Assembler. No typo. I understand it. ;-)

In the end you could compare the size of your cock next to the horse next to you, but in the end you still have a cock and so does he. What you use it for doesn't really change much, even if in the manner that you use it does.

To call VB programmer's weak is a little a the tea cup and the kettle comparison. In that case, you'd have to page on Javascipt, VBscipt, Python, Perl, and all those...lesser people who seem to can't figure out the C based languages (C++, C#, Java...etc).

Java is nice, but it's not as easy to learn as VB. As I said, a business language is designed to allow people who primarily deal in business develop application in an efficient, quick manner. A systems house that based it's entire coding strategy on VB probably isn't going anywhere, but the technology group that needs to put together a quick order purchasing system to a support a vendor would be able to do something quick and dirty in VB.

Remember...there is really no major systems project that used just one language. Each of the languages have their uses, including VB, and if you arrogant throw it away when it comes time to selecting someone for a team if you already have 5 C++ and Assembly developers and you need someone with VB experience...well, guess what...you're shooting yourself in the foot not knowing a full structured, object-orientated language such as VB.NET or an object based language such as VB6.0. If you know Java, great...stepping to Javascript workers wonders...but what if the rest of the development team is only using C++ and VB, and Java to them is a $5 cup of coffee...

The reality of the world as we know is in business, and most of us are going to be creating application geared toward business - VB is a very real deal, given that 85-90% of business developers known or use VB exclusively. Marketing gimmick or not...it works.

Gotta keep your options open, always. And don't, for one minute, look down on any one particular language.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:32 pm 
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Gadget wrote:
MantaBase wrote:
Just because its perfect for bussiness doesn't mean that alone is what it was made for.


OMG - we're going to have to kill you now!


I gotta throw a cookie in someplace. VB is perfect for a non-computer centric business. Its easy to learn and great for tiny apps that will be used in-house. However, it is MS centric, limited (from what I read), and really not meant for full blown apps. I also hear its slow so not good for graphic intensive programs (like games - but I heard that way back so maybe its better now?). But for small windows only apps its sounds fine. In other words, its the language for those that don't want to be programmers - but want or need to program.

Now if we had VisualPython we could put VB to bed for good.

Anyways - Wolfmann says all the same things I have heard before for other folks. I just don't agree with them.

Manta


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:33 pm 
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MS may now spin it as that - and thats fine - its perfect for that environment. But that is not its history. Truth be told, it was designed to sell more boxes of Windows


VB 1-4 were abortions, designed for personal usage yes. In fact I don't think there was an appreciable release of 2 and 3. VB4 was where Microsoft and the business world realized they could get along. VB 5 was the first real iteration where Microsoft turned and said, "We can do this." It still sucked ass, but colleges picked it up, and so did the business world.

VB 6.0 brought object-orientation and a whole new way of looking at things. ASP and and VBscript were now looking at the online world as a way of doing business. This is the dominant language in the business world. The majority of developers that aren't doing dedicated systems level development or software engineering use VB6.0 exclusively, or have it as a large part of their repertoire.

Visual Basic is much bigger, much more profound a strategy than "selling windows boxes."

VB is designed, first, to be syntactically simple. It's not code that is hard to read at all, far easier than the C languages, but if all you've ever read is COBOL, LISP, C, FORTRAN...then VB maybe a little beneath you.

Let's face it...the $5 mocha-chocha-in-my-throata drinking crowd couldn't give a shit about the inner workings of their computer, or how to create algorithms. They just want shit to work, and they needed it to work yesterday.

VB (and other languages) allow them to do that a whole hell of a lot quicker, but by maybe giving up some functionality they'll never notice, and business can drive on.

Maybe someone that has some actual business development experience can lend their advice. There are big differences between VB6 and VB.NET, but I'd like to see someone call them stupid, Microsoft, sellouts...especially the VB.NET developers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:53 pm 
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[quote="Wolfmann"][/quote]

There's really no need to get all worked up about this.

I haven't seen anyone refuse VB help in this forum. And you had to know that C and Java folks would poke fun at it. Folks would poke fun at python except for that article that everyone read that said python programmers are smarter than java programmers. I bet Gadget is still pissed about that (Although I think "python programmers that also know C++" is what was really meant)

Manta


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:00 pm 
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MantaBase wrote:
Gadget wrote:
MantaBase wrote:
Just because its perfect for bussiness doesn't mean that alone is what it was made for.


OMG - we're going to have to kill you now!

Anyways - Wolfmann says all the same things I have heard before for other folks. I just don't agree with them.

Manta


I hear what you're saying but the real world is business. And business dictates the evolution of technologies. You'll understand that more when you get out of school and get a tech job and your own filing-cabinet cubicle.

I work for a major financial institution and their in-house development ranges from assembly to C#/Java. The majority of their online web work is with VB/VBscript and ActionSccript and Java/Javascript. They are looking to replace their online processes with .NET, which will mean a migration to any one of the 23 .NET languages, but mostly VB.NET and C#. Being Windows-centric to support your business process can't be all that bad, given they had 35,000 employees in 22 countries.

That's real world.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:05 pm 
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MantaBase wrote:
Wolfmann wrote:


There's really no need to get all worked up about this.

I haven't seen anyone refuse VB help in this forum. And you had to know that C and Java folks would poke fun at it. Folks would poke fun at python except for that article that everyone read that said python programmers are smarter than java programmers. I bet Gadget is still pissed about that (Although I think "python programmers that also know C++" is what was really meant)

Manta


You should wave a mgic wand in decree and denounce something just based on a "coolness" factor, or based upon the shallow-beliefs of others. That's basically what I'm saying...a VB programmer that just knows VB is never going to solve world peace, but he'll still be able to create a solution for the person that does.

Python has gotten pushed to the side. It's general merits seem pretty strong, but when you already have generic business solutions that supply what it needs, and no schools necessarily teaching it, it's not going to get the foot hold it needs. Who really uses Python? Self-taught programmers, hackers, and script-kiddies...in fact of the development guys at work that you would consider "hardcore", two of them have ever touched Python. Perl...way different. 99% of the serious web developers and the systems engineers that work on Unix servers have used it extensively.

All I'm saying is don't knock something until you've had to sit down and use it for it's intended purpose. Java/C# could easily replace it, but they may be are more difficult at an abstract level for the mentality of the average business solution developer.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:51 pm 
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Wolfmann wrote:
You should wave a mgic wand in decree and denounce something just based on a "coolness" factor, or based upon the shallow-beliefs of others. That's basically what I'm saying...a VB programmer that just knows VB is never going to solve world peace, but he'll still be able to create a solution for the person that does.


Python's coolness factor is because the language in of itself is powerful. VB is a very limiting language, it's defined simply into a Microsoft-centric environment. Python is cross platform, has good performance, good libraries (something VB doesn't have), not to mention extensibility. I've coded in VB and can tell you that it has to be the worst language I've written for. I'd rather suffer through Perl than code for VB. The coolness of Python is being able to use C/C++ not to mention Java to extend the power of your Python programs. For business', this is an enticing offer. The only real reason that VB is out there is the lack of insight towards Open Source software and the fact that Microsoft programmers are about a dime a dozen. The word "Microsoft Professional Developer" is practically diluted with the numbers of terrible developers out there (I know this first hand, I've worked/met a lot of them).

Wolfmann wrote:
Python has gotten pushed to the side. It's general merits seem pretty strong, but when you already have generic business solutions that supply what it needs, and no schools necessarily teaching it, it's not going to get the foot hold it needs. Who really uses Python? Self-taught programmers, hackers, and script-kiddies...in fact of the development guys at work that you would consider "hardcore", two of them have ever touched Python. Perl...way different. 99% of the serious web developers and the systems engineers that work on Unix servers have used it extensively.

All I'm saying is don't knock something until you've had to sit down and use it for it's intended purpose. Java/C# could easily replace it, but they may be are more difficult at an abstract level for the mentality of the average business solution developer.


Python got pushed to the side? Far from it! Python was originally used by Yahoo in their first iterations of Yahoo Mail. Google used Python, so does NASA, Industrial Light and Magic, and hundreds of organizations knowing the benefits of Python. Heck, NASA uses Python in Mission Control. Stanford uses Python for their Folding website. The thing with Business is that companies just don't want to invest in creating custom solutions, rather, they opted for a more general solution. That's where Microsoft came in, it was a good idea, but it wasn't the best solution. That's why VB (IMHO) has a good hold, but this is quickly changing as that Open Source is making a strong charge towards the once-conquered Microsoft domain. This means that even in development, VB is quickly losing ground to Java, Python, and heck, even C#.

I knock VB because VB is just a lousy language that should have never been conceived. I've noticed that VB programs are bloated, and a true VB program is never written in VB alone, its components are always coded in MFC via C++. Hardcore Windows development has always been done in C++, because VB was such a limiting factor. Even in .NET, Microsoft encourages the underlying components to be written in C++.NET or C#, while the interface is strictly VB. There's a reason for that, and it's because VB is just a very limiting language to begin with.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:08 pm 
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Wolfmann wrote:
Maybe someone that has some actual business development experience can lend their advice. There are big differences between VB6 and VB.NET, but I'd like to see someone call them stupid, Microsoft, sellouts...especially the VB.NET developers.


Who said any of that?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:09 pm 
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MantaBase wrote:
Folks would poke fun at python except for that article that everyone read that said python programmers are smarter than java programmers. I bet Gadget is still pissed about that (Although I think "python programmers that also know C++" is what was really meant)


Don't make me have to kill you twice in one day! :evil:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:13 pm 
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Wolfmann wrote:
Python has gotten pushed to the side. It's general merits seem pretty strong, but when you already have generic business solutions that supply what it needs, and no schools necessarily teaching it, it's not going to get the foot hold it needs. Who really uses Python? Self-taught programmers, hackers, and script-kiddies...in fact of the development guys at work that you would consider "hardcore", two of them have ever touched Python. Perl...way different. 99% of the serious web developers and the systems engineers that work on Unix servers have used it extensively.


You see! This is the problem w/ VB in programming forums - it makes everyone irrational!

Several companies and schools use and teach Python. Google and Stanford are strong examples of each.

And Google doesn't hire Java devs based on their Python experience!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:35 pm 
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Gadget wrote:
You see! This is the problem w/ VB in programming forums - it makes everyone irrational!

Several companies and schools use and teach Python. Google and Stanford are strong examples of each.

And Google doesn't hire Java devs based on their Python experience!


I find that a lot of developers misunderstand the power of Python, I used to underestimate the power of Python, that is, until I started writing code for it (sometime ago). What I like about Python is its easy syntax and extensibility, I was really surprised to find out that you can write your modules in C/C++ and import it in Python. This makes it interesting, as that Python doesn't have much of an ODBC driver, so you can write your ODBC modules in C++ and import it to Python. Python is a good language, actually, and I think it's making its mark in the business world like Java.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:28 pm 
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Gadget wrote:

In C++, which supports both procedural and OOP, the main library is called the STL - standard template library, which uses the namespace std like I showed you above. Instead of using a package, C++ has a keyword called friend - imo, friends are the most unfriendly thing I've seen in any language and I much prefer Java's use of packages.


The main library is really referred to as the Standard Library and STL. The Standard Library includes the C classes (on a modern compiler it's rewritten for C++ advantages). The STL is the templated stuff like vectors, etc.

As for packages... the keyword friend just allows a class or function to access private data members of another class. Whether that constitutes a package in C++, I would disagree.

Howver, I don't know what is a package in Python. It seems like a library to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:03 pm 
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DJSPIN80 wrote:
Gadget wrote:

You see! This is the problem w/ VB in programming forums - it makes everyone irrational!

Several companies and schools use and teach Python. Google and Stanford are strong examples of each.

And Google doesn't hire Java devs based on their Python experience!


I find that a lot of developers misunderstand the power of Python, I used to underestimate the power of Python, that is, until I started writing code for it (sometime ago). What I like about Python is its easy syntax and extensibility, I was really surprised to find out that you can write your modules in C/C++ and import it in Python. This makes it interesting, as that Python doesn't have much of an ODBC driver, so you can write your ODBC modules in C++ and import it to Python. Python is a good language, actually, and I think it's making its mark in the business world like Java.


You and I are going to love Groovy. I'll start a thread on it shortly. Definitely the next language that I plan on learning.

As for Python in the business world.... I don't see it there for a while. Definitely used by business, but i've never heard of a Python business application. Who knows. These things are so hard to tell.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:16 pm 
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Dude-X wrote:
Gadget wrote:

In C++, which supports both procedural and OOP, the main library is called the STL - standard template library, which uses the namespace std like I showed you above. Instead of using a package, C++ has a keyword called friend - imo, friends are the most unfriendly thing I've seen in any language and I much prefer Java's use of packages.


The main library is really referred to as the Standard Library and STL. The Standard Library includes the C classes (on a modern compiler it's rewritten for C++ advantages). The STL is the templated stuff like vectors, etc.

Yes. That is correct. I remember Stormblade, Gary and Yubinyakin talking about this in the other forum once. It was like a C / C++ history lesson.

dudex wrote:
As for packages... the keyword friend just allows a class or function to access private data members of another class. Whether that constitutes a package in C++, I would disagree.

Private members? Are you sure? I'll have to check. Although, now that you mention it.... hmm.

Friend isn't the same thing as a package, but it is cpp's method to allow different classes to interact w/o the inappropriate use of composition or inheritance. Without it, you would occasionally run across large, contorted, classes that should be broken up into two or three modular units just so you could have all the functionality that you needed. I like the package concept a lot more than friend. Did I say that before? :)

dudex wrote:
Howver, I don't know what is a package in Python. It seems like a library to me.

Packages are very convient methods for organizing your classes into a larger grouping. I guess the equivelent in C++ would be a small, very focused library.

Hey, if you have a few minutes, can you pass out the awards for the String Cheese Challange this weekend? That'll give me a day to implement a Groovy solution.


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