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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:02 am 
I judge you GUILTY!
I judge you GUILTY!
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 4:38 pm
Posts: 162
Location: New York City
Quote:
Friend isn't the same thing as a package, but it is cpp's method to allow different classes to interact w/o the inappropriate use of composition or inheritance. Without it, you would occasionally run across large, contorted, classes that should be broken up into two or three modular units just so you could have all the functionality that you needed. I like the package concept a lot more than friend. Did I say that before?


If you need to combine several classes into useful unit, you basically have to design something using inheritance or composition smartly. Friending a function or a class only makes sense when you need specific functionality. As far as I understand, the best use of friends is to make the syntax of writing code easier when it comes to combining different classes or functions.

Other than that, you create a library.


Quote:
can you pass out the awards for the String Cheese Challange this weekend? That'll give me a day to implement a Groovy solution.


Sure. I need to spend some time evaluating the correctness of the code and the elegance of it. Then I will hand out awards.


Last edited by Dude-X on Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:58 am 
I'd rather be modding!
I'd rather be modding!
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:47 pm
Posts: 3731
Location: Las Vegas
Wolfmann wrote:

I hear what you're saying but the real world is business. And business dictates the evolution of technologies. You'll understand that more when you get out of school and get a tech job and your own filing-cabinet cubicle.


1. SOmetime I will show you my resume so you can see why that comment doesn't really apply to me.
2. I didn't knock VB - just pointed out some realities about it. I said it was a real programming language. It has a few advantages. It has a number of dis-advatages as well.
3. My qualm was with your shallow definition of a programming language and your assertion that VB was designed originally for business.

Quote:
I work for a major financial institution and their in-house development ranges from assembly[er][ *manta enhanced quote] to C#/Java. The majority of their online web work is with VB/VBscript and ActionSccript and Java/Javascript. They are looking to replace their online processes with .NET, which will mean a migration to any one of the 23 .NET languages, but mostly VB.NET and C#. Being Windows-centric to support your business process can't be all that bad, given they had 35,000 employees in 22 countries.

That's real world.


That sounds like vendor speak. You failed to mention the possible limitations.

Quote:
Python has gotten pushed to the side. It's general merits seem pretty strong, but when you already have generic business solutions that supply what it needs, and no schools necessarily teaching it, it's not going to get the foot hold it needs. Who really uses Python? Self-taught programmers, hackers, and script-kiddies...in fact of the development guys at work that you would consider "hardcore", two of them have ever touched Python. Perl...way different. 99% of the serious web developers and the systems engineers that work on Unix servers have used it extensively.


Since you brought it up - lets talk about it a second. Who uses python:

http://www.python.org/community/users.html
http://www.pythonology.com/success

Some uni's teach it (Irvine and Stanford for example)

Python.NET is currently out and being tuned, Jython allows for Java integration and the original Python already allows for C/++ integration. Python plays nice with xml and has been used to generate xml. In fact, Python is great for the "net"

Visual solutions are up and coming and advanced IDE's already exist.
http://wingide.com/images/screenshots/sourceindex.gif

Python is easy to learn and I know from my own experience one can go from not knowing it to creating simple, useful apps in a few hours.

So yeah - all those script-kiddies at IBM use it.

If I was your CEO, or CIO, I would be asking, "With things like Python out there, why have we pigeon holed ourselves with .NET". Then I would be on the phone with HR - and a few managers and team leaders.

I am not knocking VB. Just showing you a possible future "business" direction.

After you have VB down (or if you already do), don't you think it might be smart to at least look at Python? Sorta get the jump on your co-horts?

Manta


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:13 am 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000*
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000*
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Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:32 pm
Posts: 2555
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Dude-X wrote:
Quote:
Friend isn't the same thing as a package, but it is cpp's method to allow different classes to interact w/o the inappropriate use of composition or inheritance. Without it, you would occasionally run across large, contorted, classes that should be broken up into two or three modular units just so you could have all the functionality that you needed. I like the package concept a lot more than friend. Did I say that before?


If you need to combine several classes into useful unit, you basically have to design something using inheritance or composition smartly. Friending a function or a class only makes sense when you need specific functionality. As far as I understand, the best use of friends is to make the syntax of writing code easier when it comes to using different classes.

Other than that, you create a library.

That is the problem I'm talking about though. If you don't have package access, you end up having to compose or inherit in classes that don't really belong together resulting in less cohesion and higher degrees of coupling than you would have otherwise. This is probably the biggest complaint about bad OOP designs: overuse or inappropriate use of composition and inheritance (especially). Also, a lot of people end up just wrapping all of their objects into a 'main class' that is usually the title of whatever project they are working on - 'HotelSystem' for example - and basically run the equivalent of a game loop from within there.

When I get a minute later, I'll pull out my progamming languages book, which iirc, has a good example of a bad OOP design resulting from not using friend.

Isn't a library just a bunch of classes that typically belond to the same namespace?

dudex wrote:
Sure. I need to spend some time evaluating the correctness of the code and the elegance of it. Then I will hand out awards.


Great. Um, completely ignore whatever I posted up there - 90% of the time, I have no idea what the hell I was talking about anyways.

Bjarne for president!!!

Angels suck - go Yankees!

:wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:25 pm 
8086
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:40 am
Posts: 55
Location: Illinois, in the U.S. of A.
Phew! I thought you guys were NEVER going to end your debate! lol.


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