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 Post subject: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:44 am 
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in the latest issue, gordon lays the smack down on that poor apple fan boy.

suck it apple

made usb lol, they graced us with
firewire...Apple and Sonys heathen bastard offspring w/ royalties

all they have now is the retarded brother, the iphone4. granted I have one and I get dumber each day I use it. pinch zoom tap tap meh.
perfect interface for a child....

sorry bout the scan I didnt know where/if it was already online hehe
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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:06 pm 
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I think Gordon was just admitting that OSX doesn't need TRIM, and that it's really unnecessary, but got defensive about it, cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink. That's how it reads to me anyway, and I read it at least 3 times to make sure I was on the right path. Seems like Gordon pwned himself actually.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:03 pm 
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PM_DMNKLR wrote:
I think Gordon was just admitting that OSX doesn't need TRIM, and that it's really unnecessary, but got defensive about it, cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink. That's how it reads to me anyway, and I read it at least 3 times to make sure I was on the right path. Seems like Gordon pwned himself actually.


OooooKaaay genius, just how does OSX get by without dealing with the issue?

Oh never mind, don't want to start a flame war.Will someone please report me. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Well apparently it gets by just fine, seeing as nobody ever complains about it ever slowing anything down. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:41 pm 
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@ PM_DMNKLR;

But you didn't answer the question.

Why doesn't OSX need trim, what do they do different? Be specific. The whole world says that to keep ssd's healthy and performing at their full potential certain things need to be done. Are you just basing this on supposition or do you have hard facts. Surely you have some real facts and not just Apple's, "It Just Works", say so. What does OSX do differently?

While were at it how do you come to the conclusion that trim is unnecessary?


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Maybe OSX integrates something like TRIM already. We don't know.





Ted


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:45 am 
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PM_DMNKLR wrote:
Well apparently it gets by just fine, seeing as nobody ever complains about it ever slowing anything down. :wink:


A parked car also never slows down.

</deepthoughts>

;)


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:13 pm 
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tugboat_2 wrote:
@ PM_DMNKLR;

But you didn't answer the question.


Actually, I answered the question that was asked of me, you asked how, which translates to "In what way", which would be asking me if it does it well, poorly, fantastically, etc. If you wanted to know details of in what application and manner OSX functions, in order to get around the TRIM issue, you should've specified to that effect. Yes, I'm being a smartass, but that's because I can do so, seeing as how you asked a rather vague question, and were being a smartass yourself in the demeanor of doing so.

That being said, as Gordon himself points out in his response, "we found performance test online that indicated that the lack of Trim didn't seem to be a negative. This may be because the SSD's in Apple MacBooks are slower than most mechanical drives. We're guessing that Apple has implemented some sort of garbage-collection routine in the background of OS X that works well enough that users won't notice the difference, but we don't know enough to say for certain." He then just chalks it up with "In any case, the lack of documentation is a negative." That's bullshit all over the place right there. It's equivalent to saying "Well, we don't know how to get from 80 x 50 to 400 on their paper, cuz we don't see the documentation on how to do the math, but we do on this paper, cuz it's all laid out before us, so this one wins and that one's crap." The real deal is this: none of us know what Apple's doing, if anything at all, but 1 thing is 100% for certain so far, and that is that they're getting no performance loss from supposedly not using Trim.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:59 pm 
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PM_DMNKLR Wrote;
Spoiler: show
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
tugboat_2 wrote:
@ PM_DMNKLR;

But you didn't answer the question.


Actually, I answered the question that was asked of me, you asked how, which translates to "In what way", which would be asking me if it does it well, poorly, fantastically, etc. If you wanted to know details of in what application and manner OSX functions, in order to get around the TRIM issue, you should've specified to that effect. Yes, I'm being a smartass, but that's because I can do so, seeing as how you asked a rather vague question, and were being a smartass yourself in the demeanor of doing so.

That being said, as Gordon himself points out in his response, "we found performance test online that indicated that the lack of Trim didn't seem to be a negative. This may be because the SSD's in Apple MacBooks are slower than most mechanical drives. We're guessing that Apple has implemented some sort of garbage-collection routine in the background of OS X that works well enough that users won't notice the difference, but we don't know enough to say for certain." He then just chalks it up with "In any case, the lack of documentation is a negative." That's bullshit all over the place right there. It's equivalent to saying "Well, we don't know how to get from 80 x 50 to 400 on their paper, cuz we don't see the documentation on how to do the math, but we do on this paper, cuz it's all laid out before us, so this one wins and that one's crap." The real deal is this: none of us know what Apple's doing, if anything at all, but 1 thing is 100% for certain so far, and that is that they're getting no performance loss from supposedly not using Trim.


Okay lets clarify a bit here.

1st. "Mo" the original correspondent accuses Gordon of Apple bashing regarding OSX's lack of a trim command. He then launches in to a tirade of all the things that Apple gave the world firstest and bestest. Which by the way has absolutely nothing to do with Trim or lack there of in OSX. He then states;

" As to why OSX doesn't have a 'trim' command, it's because there is no way apple would ship a system with that kind of obvious botch" (now that's an authoritative statement based on documented fact) He then further states "Microsoft thinks exposing it's users to such geekish nonsense is acceptable...."

so he is saying that Apple would never ever put an SSD into their machines just to "keep up with the Jones's" and be able to advertise "Me Too" without fully implementing the technology in an upfront competent manner. He is also saying that SSD wearing and other problems with longevity/reliability is all smoke and mirrors so that Microsoft can create more programming headaches for themselves to help their users get the most out of there gear. Just for bragging rights I suppose. Notice, Not once does he present any references to hard data or credible information, articles, or white papers to back himself up. He ignores all the documented reports, reviews, and even the very SSD manufacturer's own documentation that there is a need for "Trim" and that all this is coming from sources outside of Microsoft.

2nd. Gordon's response was simply to, in a backhanded sort of way, nicely say Mo was living in a "fools paradise" if he thinks Trim/garbage collection is not a real issue. He then went on to point out Mo's own ignorance in historical matters. All this was justifiable response to an inept attempt to flame someone much better informed and more experienced than himself. Just plain dumb for a couch potato to pick a fight with Mike Tyson, Huh? However, Gordon does indicate that Apple is doing "something" since it seems that SSD's are getting the job done in the MacBook Pro. BUT that what ever it is makes the SSD perform only as good as a spindle drive. So Apple's kluge must, it seems, be resource intensive, to say the least.

Now you chimed in saying with the hip shot; "I think Gordon was just admitting that OSX doesn't need TRIM, and that it's really unnecessary, but got defensive about it, cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink.". When as we see that is not the case. Mo was put in his proper place on history issues and that trim or at least garbage collection in some form (my words there) is in fact needed. But if you don't believe that it's ok its a free country. This is not, as noted, a mere opinion by Gordon it is documented proven fact many times over by many sources. It is proven that SSD's suffer without.

I admit I may have been a bit snide with my response with you but... Now and then I get annoyed when someone unpublished, unrecognized and most likely under qualified makes a blanket statement that can easily mislead some noobe such as myself. By the way what was "cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink" supposed to mean.

You said you thought Gordon was admitting OSX doesn't need trim. That implies that Trim is not needed. But you offer no reference to back it up. some people read these forums to learn or get up to date on things and true facts are needed not blind off the cuff statements. So let me restate the questions a little more clearly. Just to help your reading comprehension skills.

Why doesn't OSX need Trim or some equivalent?

Why is Trim or it's equivalent unnecessary?

If OSX is doing it in some way How are they doing it? And where can we see an informed methodical review of at least the results of Apples methods of dealing with the problems.

I truly would like to know your sources of information as I am faced with the daunting task of talking my daughter and son-in-law out of buying Apples in the near future. I don't blindly trust anyone in the PC world when it comes to hardware or software. I for sure don't buy into "Apple Just Works". Especially since they have a history of denial of problems and hiding solutions in case it might imply a problem with Apple.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:33 am 
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PM, what are you doing here? MacLife is over there dude.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:12 am 
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Spartacus wrote:
PM, what are you doing here? MacLife is over there dude.


I think he is expressing his opinion of OSX based PCs vs. Windows based PCs. We do it on a regular basis in the Alt.OS.Abode, but I think it fits quite well here.

I think he is wrong in this case but not because he is defending Apple. See tugboat's reply for an interesting analysis of the question at hand.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:56 pm 
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I'm not defending Apple in any way, and garbage collection was not generalized, it was specified that Trim is what's necessary, however it would seem that Apple is using an alternately-titled collection routine, although we don't know what it is, just that it seems to exist. Gordon himself speculated to this effect, and then made a random dummy remark to make himself look good again, but he only made himself come across as an ass. Admittedly, "Mo" was rather ignorant in his comments, and I think many would agree that it would have best suited the mag to just publish a different question (Mo's couldn't possibly have been in the top 5) and response altogether. It's unprofessional and immature to publish a response of attack on a random douchebag, just to make him/her look like a complete fool.

I'll admit that I don't know what Apple's GC routine is in OSX, but it's obvious that it's there and functioning, otherwise we'd see a plethora of complaints and outcries all over the internet about Macs slowing down like crazy. Just because I myself don't know what it is or is called, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and again, even Gordon mentioned the evidence that it appears to exist, although Apple's not speaking up about what it is or is called.

As for the Kool-Aid, the computer industry is chock-full of total BS that they like to push on us, saying it's necessary, when it's far from the fact. Garbage Collection routines may be necessary, but I believe that the computing industry is just being lazy and forcing us to use it, when using SSD's, rather than figuring out a way to make it operate automatically.

The last known info given about Trim support in Macs, that I could find, is actually from June 2010, where it's noted that the drives they're using do not sport firmware that's compatible with current Trim capabilities, thus they're not supported. It's also noted that the new Macs (note: NOT the latest released ones, but future ones) will have drives that do support Trim, due to their firmware, and OSX will enable Trim for said drives, automatically. It seems that Intel is behind this issue, which isn't surprising. Apparently Nvidia's chip sets are capable of communicating Trim commands, however Intel doesn't want them touching their hardware any more, and therefore the new Macs will use Intel chip sets, which it's still up in the air about where that's going to end up. Intel's not speaking up about what they're going to do, in regards to allowing/not allowing Trim support for Macs. If I were Apple, I'd be forcing them to cough it up, because they can't allow a greedy-assed company to destroy them, just because they're also in competition with them, not just in bed with em.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:19 pm 
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PM_DMNKLR wrote:
As for the Kool-Aid, the computer industry is chock-full of total BS that they like to push on us, saying it's necessary, when it's far from the fact. Garbage Collection routines may be necessary, but I believe that the computing industry is just being lazy and forcing us to use it, when using SSD's, rather than figuring out a way to make it operate automatically.


And controller companies are indeed working on that. There are new controllers that do 'garbage collection' without being OS or chipset dependent. The technology is still very new. Just like everything else, you have to give it time.

Quote:
Intel's not speaking up about what they're going to do, in regards to allowing/not allowing Trim support for Macs. If I were Apple, I'd be forcing them to cough it up, because they can't allow a greedy-assed company to destroy them, just because they're also in competition with them, not just in bed with em.


And how do you know how well Intel and Apple are working together? Intel wants to keep this licensing agreement. Purposely crippling the hardware would drive a divide between the two. Intel isn't going to bend over backwards for Apple, but they will work with them.

Quote:
I'll admit that I don't know what Apple's GC routine is in OSX, but it's obvious that it's there and functioning, otherwise we'd see a plethora of complaints and outcries all over the internet about Macs slowing down like crazy.


That's assuming that people see the performance degradation and know what's going on. My sister in law has a Macbook and was complaining that the system has been locking up when she starts it. Her and a friend were talking about taking the system to Apple so it can be 'rebooted' but how she had it 'rebooted' recently.

My sister in law is a very intelligent person otherwise, but she has no clue what she's talking about. Now prove to me that there aren't plenty of others out there that are the same way. The system might be a little slowed down, and they think it's something Apple needs to fix.

n0b0dykn0ws


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:10 am 
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n0b0dykn0ws wrote:
Now prove to me that there aren't plenty of others out there that are the same way. The system might be a little slowed down, and they think it's something Apple needs to fix.n0b0dykn0ws


How can you even remotely consider that anyone would even bother to try proving your speculation to you? Yes, that's right, it's your speculation. If you want confirmation of something, I suggest you do a little Googling, it may pay you some mental accomplishment reward, who knows. I have nothing whatsoever to prove to you, nor a desire to even bother attempting to, especially when you're asking, or rather, demanding such absurdities.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:21 am 
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PM_DMNKLR wrote:
I'll admit that I don't know what Apple's GC routine is in OSX, but it's obvious that it's there and functioning, otherwise we'd see a plethora of complaints and outcries all over the internet about Macs slowing down like crazy. Just because I myself don't know what it is or is called, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and again, even Gordon mentioned the evidence that it appears to exist, although Apple's not speaking up about what it is or is called.


I see. It appears you are admitting you don't know anything about the subject, or at least you didn't at the time you called Gordon out.

So How is it you decided to make this comment:
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
I think Gordon was just admitting that OSX doesn't need TRIM, and that it's really unnecessary, but got defensive about it, cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink. That's how it reads to me anyway, and I read it at least 3 times to make sure I was on the right path. Seems like Gordon pwned himself actually.


PM_DMNKLR wrote:
As for the Kool-Aid, the computer industry is chock-full of total BS that they like to push on us, saying it's necessary, when it's far from the fact. Garbage Collection routines may be necessary, but I believe that the computing industry is just being lazy and forcing us to use it, when using SSD's, rather than figuring out a way to make it operate automatically.


That's a pretty general condemnation there. Based on what exactly. I thought that what the trim command did , make it automatic I mean.

OOPs, Whats that? Gordon was right? Where's your link?
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
The last known info given about Trim support in Macs, that I could find, is actually from June 2010, where it's noted that the drives they're using do not sport firmware that's compatible with current Trim capabilities, thus they're not supported.




Lets see I read this article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM_command, and come to this Quote:

Quote:
Older solid-state drives designed before the addition of the TRIM command to the ATA standard will need firmware updates, otherwise the new command will be ignored. However, not every drive will have an upgrade option. For those drives which do support the command, the operating system must also support the command. The table below identifies each notable operating system and when it first supported the command or when it is scheduled to support the command.

Operating System↓ Supported since↓ Scheduled to be supported↓ References↓
Windows 7 Final release - October 2009 [17]
Windows Server 2008 R2 Final release - October 2009 [18][19]
Linux 2.6.33 Feb 2010 [20]
OpenSolaris July 2010 [21]
FreeBSD Version 8.1 (Only for low-level erase) Version 9.0 (Proposed) [22][23]
Mac OS X Probably in the future [24]

Where TRIM is not automatically supported by the operating system, there are utilities which can send TRIM commands manually. Usually they list all free blocks as specified by the operating system and then pass this list as a series of TRIM commands to the drive. These utilities are available from various manufacturers
(Intel,[25] G.Skill[26]) or as general utilities (hdparm since v9.17[27][28]).


So Trim is a 2 part deal Firmware already on the drive, and Software in the OS to tell it to do its thing. The article notes the firmware as part of the drives back in March 2010.

Yet you say as of June:
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
It's also noted that the new Macs (note: NOT the latest released ones, but future ones) will have drives that do support Trim, due to their firmware, and OSX will enable Trim for said drives, automatically.



PM_DMNKLR wrote:
It seems that Intel is behind this issue, which isn't surprising. Apparently Nvidia's chip sets are capable of communicating Trim commands, however Intel doesn't want them touching their hardware any more, and therefore the new Macs will use Intel chip sets, which it's still up in the air about where that's going to end up. Intel's not speaking up about what they're going to do, in regards to allowing/not allowing Trim support for Macs. If I were Apple, I'd be forcing them to cough it up, because they can't allow a greedy-assed company to destroy them, just because they're also in competition with them, not just in bed with em.


Now that is a really curious statement. Now, if the firmware is on the drives and just waiting for the OSX to tell it something, how is Intel to blame. What has nVidia chipsets to do with it?

I'm just trying to understand it all. You must have the knowledge, I mean you as good as said Gordon was an idiot or at least ignorant. So you have to have had something to base that on. So educate don't get all defensive. You made the call that means the burden of proof is on you. So I leave you with a quote from my previous post:

tugboat_2 wrote:
Now you chimed in saying with the hip shot; "I think Gordon was just admitting that OSX doesn't need TRIM, and that it's really unnecessary, but got defensive about it, cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink.". When as we see that is not the case. Mo was put in his proper place on history issues and that trim or at least garbage collection in some form (my words there) is in fact needed. But if you don't believe that it's ok its a free country. This is not, as noted, a mere opinion by Gordon it is documented proven fact many times over by many sources. It is proven that SSD's suffer without.

I admit I may have been a bit snide with my response with you but... Now and then I get annoyed when someone unpublished, unrecognized and most likely under qualified makes a blanket statement that can easily mislead some noobe such as myself. By the way what was "cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink" supposed to mean.

You said you thought Gordon was admitting OSX doesn't need trim. That implies that Trim is not needed. But you offer no reference to back it up. some people read these forums to learn or get up to date on things and true facts are needed not blind off the cuff statements. So let me restate the questions a little more clearly. Just to help your reading comprehension skills.

Why doesn't OSX need Trim or some equivalent?

Why is Trim or it's equivalent unnecessary?

If OSX is doing it in some way How are they doing it? And where can we see an informed methodical review of at least the results of Apples methods of dealing with the problems.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:06 am 
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PM_DMNKLR wrote:
Apparently Nvidia's chip sets are capable of communicating Trim commands, however Intel doesn't want them touching their hardware any more, and therefore the new Macs will use Intel chip sets, which it's still up in the air about where that's going to end up. Intel's not speaking up about what they're going to do, in regards to allowing/not allowing Trim support for Macs.


what on earth are you talking about? TRIM is a software command. chipsets have nothing to do with it (Win7s AHCI driver works with all AHCI capable chipsets for example, and intels SSD toolbox works with any chipset in IDE mode). Intel itself has nothing to do with it aside from being one of the many companies that helped develop it and finalize it, as TRIM is part of the ATA open standard.

for OS level "on the fly" TRIM you need the following conditions to all be true:

1. the OS needs to support it and send it appropriately.

2. the device driver needs to understand it and be able to pass it along.

3. the drive itself needs to be able to implement it.

if any of the above are false then you need a separate utilility (built into the OS or standalone) that will TRIM the drive manually, either by triggering drives TRIM capability while feeding it the appropriate file map (ala intels SSD toolbox for its G2 drives), or, if it doesnt support TRIM, by forcing it to rearrange its dirty/clean block list some other way (writing huge files, doing a secure erase of the drive, and such other kludges).

you still seem very confused on what TRIM is, how it works, and why its needed.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:56 am 
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PM_DMNKLR wrote:
I have nothing whatsoever to prove to you, nor a desire to even bother attempting to, especially when you're asking, or rather, demanding such absurdities.


You're the one claiming that there are no problems with SSDs in Apple products.

If you don't know there is something wrong, then you don't report that something is wrong.

I'm not claiming that all Apple product owners are idiots, merely that there are a lot of people that are otherwise intelligent and own Apple products but don't know a thing about computer performance.

n0b0dykn0ws


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:11 pm 
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I didn't claim anything of the sort, nor did I ever once call Gordon out, "Mo" did that, and Gordon responded. And if you read correctly, which you all seem to have a problem doing, Gordon himself said that there appears to be some routine enabled for garbage collection, and that it appears that we just can't see what it is.

As for chip sets, they require drivers, and those drivers tell the devices how and what to communicate. If the chip set is told by its drivers to send a Trim command, then it will, if it's NOT told to do so, then it won't. As for the drives and their supporting/not supporting Trim, yes, it's all in the firmware. The firmware is software that operates like a driver, but is a constant, and again, like a driver, tells the hardware how and what to communicate. If the drive's firmware is not programmed to either support or recognize Trim commands, then it won't receive such commands being communicated to it via the chip set. The responsibility of the firmware is supporting communication. A good example is an LGA775 motherboard that supports a Q6600 CPU with firmware Rev.1a, but it won't support a Q9650 unless updated to Rev.2a, got it? @tugboat, nowhere does it say that the drives all had the firmware as of March 2010, especially not in the section that you posted.

Per Intel having any issues with the whole deal, apparently they've been strong-arming Apple with supporting Nvidia chip sets. They've never liked dealing with Nvidia, there's a good history of that, and they want the entire pie all to themselves, not sharing it with AMD or Nvidia. They do have the ability to strong-arm Apple, since they're the ones providing them the hardware necessary to create and operate their machines, and they're far from innocent in doing just that. Dell is a good example of that issue, just look at the class action suits brought onto Intel by the US government for their shady dealings with HP, Dell, Gateway, etc. They were strong-arming them, and are still under investigation for it.

My final line is this, @n0b0dykn0ws, unless people come forward to complain about performance degradation, speed differences, data loss, etc., we the people of the general population can only speculate that there's not an issue. To give another good example, Microsoft wouldn't know about an obscure driver compatibility issue in Windows 7, after the OS' release, unless people communicated to them about the issue. You can't just say "Well, I haven't seen any problems, but I bet they're there", because that's just ridiculous. Of all things to think negatively about OSX and Apple, that's just stretching too far in desperation, and that's not an opinion, it's a fact.


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Oh hell, are you really reading what you write???

PM_DMNKLR wrote:
I didn't claim anything of the sort, nor did I ever once call Gordon out,


Eh, what's this all about?
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
I think Gordon was just admitting that OSX doesn't need TRIM, and that it's really unnecessary, but got defensive about it, cuz that's the Kool-Aid that they've been trying to make us all drink. That's how it reads to me anyway, and I read it at least 3 times to make sure I was on the right path. Seems like Gordon pwned himself actually.


And this?
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
He then just chalks it up with "In any case, the lack of documentation is a negative." That's bullshit all over the place right there. It's equivalent to saying "Well, we don't know how to get from 80 x 50 to 400 on their paper, cuz we don't see the documentation on how to do the math, but we do on this paper, cuz it's all laid out before us, so this one wins and that one's crap." The real deal is this: none of us know what Apple's doing, if anything at all, but 1 thing is 100% for certain so far, and that is that they're getting no performance loss from supposedly not using Trim.


And this?
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
I'm not defending Apple in any way, and garbage collection was not generalized, it was specified that Trim is what's necessary, however it would seem that Apple is using an alternately-titled collection routine, although we don't know what it is, just that it seems to exist. Gordon himself speculated to this effect, and then made a random dummy remark to make himself look good again, but he only made himself come across as an ass. Admittedly, "Mo" was rather ignorant in his comments, and I think many would agree that it would have best suited the mag to just publish a different question (Mo's couldn't possibly have been in the top 5) and response altogether. It's unprofessional and immature to publish a response of attack on a random douchebag, just to make him/her look like a complete fool.



PM_DMNKLR wrote:
As for chip sets, they require drivers, and those drivers tell the devices how and what to communicate. If the chip set is told by its drivers to send a Trim command, then it will, if it's NOT told to do so, then it won't. As for the drives and their supporting/not supporting Trim, yes, it's all in the firmware. The firmware is software that operates like a driver, but is a constant, and again, like a driver, tells the hardware how and what to communicate. If the drive's firmware is not programmed to either support or recognize Trim commands, then it won't receive such commands being communicated to it via the chip set. The responsibility of the firmware is supporting communication. A good example is an LGA775 motherboard that supports a Q6600 CPU with firmware Rev.1a, but it won't support a Q9650 unless updated to Rev.2a, got it? @tugboat, nowhere does it say that the drives all had the firmware as of March 2010, especially not in the section that you posted.


I have already admitted up front I'm no expert. However, I think "firmware" is programing stored on the drive Not the motherboard chip set. the motherboard chip set could give a shit less What the OS is telling the Drive to do. It just passes it along via the proper route at the proper time so as not to disrupt the whole system unnecessarily. As far as any other "drivers" they would be software. They would be installed in or part of the OS to tell the OS what, when, and how execute trim and send the command on to the drive. Note this is OS software Intel doesn't have a damned thing to do with it. It's up to the OS author to decide if when and how to incorporate it. The onus is not on Intel to do this it's on the OS writer.

So why again would you design a computer and operating system and install an SSD with out Trim support? And Why would you not incorporate it into your OS. You are the system designer and author of the OS. So its up to you to write the optimal drivers Since you know how your system works and what is optimal for your system. The drive should just be there patiently waiting instructions. And what the hell does Intel have to do with writing Apple's software and drivers.

As far as I remember the only drives manufactured after sometime around March were cheap bare bones come-ons. The only ones being sold were stocks for quick disposal cause no one in there right mind would buy them given a choice. And Apple has a choice. You said so yourself:
PM_DMNKLR wrote:
The last known info given about Trim support in Macs, that I could find, is actually from June 2010, where it's noted that the drives they're using do not sport firmware that's compatible with current Trim capabilities, thus they're not supported. It's also noted that the new Macs (note: NOT the latest released ones, but future ones) will have drives that do support Trim, due to their firmware, and OSX will enable Trim for said drives, automatically


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 Post subject: Re: GORDON PWNS POOR APPLE FAN BOY!!! ROFL FTW
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:07 pm 
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PM_DMNKLR wrote:
Gordon himself said that there appears to be some routine enabled for garbage collection, and that it appears that we just can't see what it is.

you do realize that garbage collection and TRIM are not the same right? just checking.

PM_DMNKLR wrote:
As for chip sets, ...[blah blah computer 101 stuff]...
got it?


yeah yeah, got it. so why did you post this garbage?

PM_DMNKLR wrote:
Apparently Nvidia's chip sets are capable of communicating Trim commands, however Intel doesn't want them touching their hardware any more, and therefore the new Macs will use Intel chip sets, which it's still up in the air about where that's going to end up. Intel's not speaking up about what they're going to do, in regards to allowing/not allowing Trim support for Macs



PM_DMNKLR wrote:
Per Intel having any issues with the whole deal, apparently they've been strong-arming Apple with supporting Nvidia chip sets. [more etc]


um, Apple will write the OS and driver TRIM support code because, its like, you know, Apple stuff and all.. its not up to Intel. Intel can, if they wish, provide sample code for thier chipsets but they certainly dont have to. as for Intel not giving Apple hardware, well Apple can buy an old ICH8 chipset from Ebay or something and test its code on that. TRIM does not require the latest chipset from Intel. or from any particular manufacturer for that matter. TRIM, as I told you and you so dramatically confirmed in your "got it" paragraph, is not chipset specific.


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