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 Post subject: Great Idea for system cooling, too bad no one makes the part
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:10 pm 
Max [Ph]otographer
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Hey all.

I've been trying to keep my system cool over the past few weeks.

The first thing I did was add a new PSU, one that has an intake fan in addition to the exhaust fan.

The second thing I did to keep my HDD cool was to remove the bottom 5.25 plate, and mount it in that bay.

The third thing I did was buy a PCI exhaust fan and put it 2 slots away from my VGA, with an empty slot in the middle.

I kept my old 80mm fan, blowing out the back.

The last thing I did was tape notecard paper all over all the holes in the back. This prevents hot air from getting sucked back in.

What I've got here is a near optimal cooling system. I've got all the fans in the inside of the case towards the rear, and all blowing out the back. I've got a large amount of air moving across the HDD which keeps it cool without having a noisy fan sitting so close to my right ear.

Now, there is only one hitch. I don't have grill to insert over the 5.25" bay. I don't have to have this, but my PC looks pretty ugly with an open 5.25 bay and a HDD about 1" inside.

I googled for about 10min and could come up with only one solution. That is to buy a noisy 5.25 bay fan with grill and take out the fan. Seems kinda wastefull to do that, but I think that's just what might have to be done.

Can anyone come up with a better solution?

And yes, I am pretty set on my current configuration. System temp, read right next to the CPU socket, reads 35C, only about 6-8C above ambient temp. That's good enough for me!

Dan O.


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 Post subject: Re: Great Idea for system cooling, too bad no one makes the
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:55 pm 
Boy in Black
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Belboz99 wrote:
The first thing I did was add a new PSU, one that has an intake fan in addition to the exhaust fan.

The second fan is very ineffective for system cooling, and even questionable for the PS's own cooling. The heatsinks that need cooled air in the PS are on the top area of the unit, with the fan in the bottom. A single fan PS ususally just has slots on the front side of the unit, which sounds better IMO. With the fan exhausting air, it comes in at a better place. What goes out must be replaced, so the natural flow seems fair to me. Not that we can get away from that though, all of my Power Supplies come with the second fan anyway. And the OCZ one has it where I feel it's effective at least instead of like on my Antec one where it's on the bottom. I just don't chose based on the second fan at all.
Image
Quote:
The second thing I did to keep my HDD cool was to remove the bottom 5.25 plate, and mount it in that bay.

Also, if this is an only drive, then mounting it in the middle area of the bay is a good idea. If it has brothers, insure that they're spaced out. If it's cramped, then the only thing you can hope for is to have the bottom open to the case and a fan mounted in front of it...if that's even allowed.

Quote:
The last thing I did was tape notecard paper all over all the holes in the back. This prevents hot air from getting sucked back in.

Doing this does very little but be ugly. Now it's just sucking in from all the other holes. If it was optimal, then there'd be a big inlet in the front that isn't starving air flow. Air will follow the path of less resistance (just like electricity), so if it gets all it wants from here, then it won't choose these little holes at all. To see if it's using the holes at all, hold a post it note by the holes and see if it blows out. I smoke, so I use a lit lucky strike:)

Quote:
Now, there is only one hitch. I don't have grill to insert over the 5.25" bay. I don't have to have this, but my PC looks pretty ugly with an open 5.25 bay and a HDD about 1" inside.


Get a spare cover. Easy as pie. What kind of case it is and maybe we can find it for ya. Having it blocked off is probably better anyway. You want either one good river of air (picture the jetstream) or one big path through the entire thing. The former meaning a path from the front fan, across your mobo, then out your fan. Adding one somewhere up in the bay will lessen this optimal affect. I wouldn't put a bay fan in unless you're really having trouble keeping a drive cool. Stick with what's known unless you have the gear to test these theories. One of these would be helpful:
Image

Quote:
System temp, read right next to the CPU socket, reads 35C, only about 6-8C above ambient temp.
That's 95F...higher than desired IMO.[/img]


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 Post subject: I doubt you want to spend this much, but...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:54 pm 
Bitchin' Fast 3D Z8000
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http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/smartdrive2002.html 8)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:41 pm 
Willamette
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spare cd drive cover.

you can drill it out easilly. use panty-hose to make an effective filter if you wish


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 Post subject: Re: Great Idea for system cooling, too bad no one makes the
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:40 pm 
Max [Ph]otographer
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Chumly wrote:
The second fan is very ineffective for system cooling, and even questionable for the PS's own cooling. The heatsinks that need cooled air in the PS are on the top area of the unit, with the fan in the bottom. A single fan PS ususally just has slots on the front side of the unit, which sounds better IMO. With the fan exhausting air, it comes in at a better place. What goes out must be replaced, so the natural flow seems fair to me. Not that we can get away from that though, all of my Power Supplies come with the second fan anyway. And the OCZ one has it where I feel it's effective at least instead of like on my Antec one where it's on the bottom. I just don't chose based on the second fan at all.


Actually, the intake fan rests just above the HS, so it is very effective. Basically, it's sucking in all the hot air the HSF blows out. I don't see how this could be a problem

Quote:
The last thing I did was tape notecard paper all over all the holes in the back. This prevents hot air from getting sucked back in.
Quote:
[color=green] Doing this does very little but be ugly. Now it's just sucking in from all the other holes. If it was optimal, then there'd be a big inlet in the front that isn't starving air flow. Air will follow the path of less resistance (just like electricity), so if it gets all it wants from here, then it won't choose these little holes at all. To see if it's using the holes at all, hold a post it note by the holes and see if it blows out. I smoke, so I use a lit lucky strike:)


The only big inlet in the front is the 5.25 drive bay. I did drill some holes in the front pannel where there were already dimples, but those holes don't allow for much airflow. I had to block the holes in the back, which no one sees, because I'm missing a few slot plates, and I forgot to put the motherboard plate in first, and it was too much of a hassle to take the motherboard back out to put a stupid plate in. You have to remember I've got a really crappy case which I would like to replace. It doesn't have good airflow to begin with.

Quote:
Now, there is only one hitch. I don't have grill to insert over the 5.25" bay. I don't have to have this, but my PC looks pretty ugly with an open 5.25 bay and a HDD about 1" inside.


Quote:
Get a spare cover. Easy as pie. What kind of case it is and maybe we can find it for ya. Having it blocked off is probably better anyway. You want either one good river of air (picture the jetstream) or one big path through the entire thing. The former meaning a path from the front fan, across your mobo, then out your fan. Adding one somewhere up in the bay will lessen this optimal affect. I wouldn't put a bay fan in unless you're really having trouble keeping a drive cool. Stick with what's known unless you have the gear to test these theories. One of these would be helpful:


Actually, my HSF is right behind my HDD, so I think this ariflow is pretty much optimal. I don't have any other good intake areas. There are some holes on the bottom of the case, but I doubt they do much, except suck in dust.

Quote:
System temp, read right next to the CPU socket, reads 35C, only about 6-8C above ambient temp.
Quote:
That's 95F...higher than desired IMO.[/img]


Yeah, but the ambient temp was about 85F, I don't have any airconditioning in this room. An increase of 10F right next to the CPU socket while folding isn't going to make me loose any sleep.

Dan O.


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 Post subject: Re: Great Idea for system cooling, too bad no one makes the
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:17 pm 
Northwood
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Belboz99 wrote:
Hey all.

I've been trying to keep my system cool over the past few weeks.

The first thing I did was add a new PSU, one that has an intake fan in addition to the exhaust fan.

The second thing I did to keep my HDD cool was to remove the bottom 5.25 plate, and mount it in that bay.

The third thing I did was buy a PCI exhaust fan and put it 2 slots away from my VGA, with an empty slot in the middle.

I kept my old 80mm fan, blowing out the back.

The last thing I did was tape notecard paper all over all the holes in the back. This prevents hot air from getting sucked back in.

What I've got here is a near optimal cooling system. I've got all the fans in the inside of the case towards the rear, and all blowing out the back. I've got a large amount of air moving across the HDD which keeps it cool without having a noisy fan sitting so close to my right ear.

Now, there is only one hitch. I don't have grill to insert over the 5.25" bay. I don't have to have this, but my PC looks pretty ugly with an open 5.25 bay and a HDD about 1" inside.

I googled for about 10min and could come up with only one solution. That is to buy a noisy 5.25 bay fan with grill and take out the fan. Seems kinda wastefull to do that, but I think that's just what might have to be done.

Can anyone come up with a better solution?

And yes, I am pretty set on my current configuration. System temp, read right next to the CPU socket, reads 35C, only about 6-8C above ambient temp. That's good enough for me!

Dan O.


What kind of case do you have? I ask cuz if the psu fan is very close to the hs/f(and that 80mm at the back) it(the hs/f) might not be getting enough air ...easiest way to check if the hs/f isn't getting enough air is compare rpm's with the side of the case off and on
lower rpm's with case side on mean there might be a vacume around you hs/f


after a year of trying different setups the best method I've found is:

-sealing up all the holes(not every pin hole though)

-have just a little more air comeing into the case than going out(at a db level you can tolerate)

-bundle up cables that might reduce airflow



to keep your hd temps down you could attach it to the bottom of your case with a 5¼ drivebay adapter and some screws


I have a 92mm 56cfm intake and 80mm 37cfm psu exhaust in a tower case, system temps stay with in 1 or 2ºC of ambient temp


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 Post subject: Re: Great Idea for system cooling, too bad no one makes the
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:40 am 
Max [Ph]otographer
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JAFAH5150 wrote:
What kind of case do you have? I ask cuz if the psu fan is very close to the hs/f(and that 80mm at the back) it(the hs/f) might not be getting enough air ...easiest way to check if the hs/f isn't getting enough air is compare rpm's with the side of the case off and on
lower rpm's with case side on mean there might be a vacume around you hs/f


Well, the PSU fan sits to the right side of the HSF, with about 1/4 the diameter overlapping the top-right-rear corner of the HSF, all in relation to the motherboard. So, I don't think there is a problem with it. The HSH has about 5-6" of headroom betweent it and the side of the case. There is no part of the HSF that is under the PSU, in relation to the mobo.

What I meant earlier was that in the more universal term, as in the ceiling is above my head, the PSU sits above the HSF. But really it sits above the side of the HSF.

Quote:
after a year of trying different setups the best method I've found is:

-sealing up all the holes(not every pin hole though)

-have just a little more air comeing into the case than going out(at a db level you can tolerate)

-bundle up cables that might reduce airflow


Yeah, I probalbly should bundle a few cables. I just don't know a good way to do that without kinking the IDE cables. The last time I had tight IDE cables I ended up damaging one of them, which caused havvoc in Win98. As for power cables, I'm not sure theres much I can do. One big problem I do have is that Abit put my PSU socket on the left side of the mobo, if you look at it from the front, but my PSU is on the right side. So, I kind of wrapped them around the side of the HS, trying to keep it over the solid parts and away from the fins.

As for having more air than coming in, this was a REALLY crappy case that I bought in haste on a low budget when my original PSU died. The store that I bought it from was selling the PSUs for more than the new cases with PSUs, so I took a case. I wasn't all that smart about using quality hardware in those days.

Anyway, this thing came without any front vents. There is a grill in the interior that was about an inch from solid plastic, if you can imagine that. I found that it was quite easy to drill some holes in the plastic where there were already some dimples. It's not something that looks handcrafted, it looks like this thing came with holes, but really it came with dimples.

BTW, that's the one fan that I forgot to mention, I have a fan behind that grill blowing air in. It's my only intake fan. Unfortunatley, those holes aren't very big, thus I get little air coming from them. I can tell this because a sheet of printer paper get's moved very little when held close to it. However, the fan is moving the air around in the case pretty good. It primarily sucks air from behind the front panel, but there are all sorts of grill holes on the same metal plate that it's mounted to.


Quote:
to keep your hd temps down you could attach it to the bottom of your case with a 5¼ drivebay adapter and some screws


I'm not sure how I would accomplish that. The entire bottom plate is solid metal, with the exeption of a 2" Dia. air grill.

Quote:
I have a 92mm 56cfm intake and 80mm 37cfm psu exhaust in a tower case, system temps stay with in 1 or 2ºC of ambient temp


I'd like to know where your system thermomter is. I'd also like to know just what kind of a CPU your running, and whether or not it's idle, and if it's oc'ed or not.

My CPU is an AMD for starters, which generally run hotter than Intels, well the lower ones to at least. It's a Barton 2500+ oc'ed to 3200, and I'm getting these temps at 100% CPU usage (folding) after a couple hours. Add to that the fact that my last Abit system thermometer was right next to the CPU socket, and I don't doubt that this one is as well.

Dan O.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:58 am 
Northwood
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Quote:
Well, the PSU fan sits to the right side of the HSF, with about 1/4 the diameter overlapping the top-right-rear corner of the HSF, all in relation to the motherboard. So, I don't think there is a problem with it. The HSH has about 5-6" of headroom betweent it and the side of the case. There is no part of the HSF that is under the PSU, in relation to the mobo.



sounds like it's far enough way not to be a problem


Quote:
I just don't know a good way to do that without kinking the IDE cables.


I usually fold it into a small bundle(without crimping it too much) and wraping electrical tape or two small zip ties to secure it..it's not pretty but it does help airflow

for the power cables on the drives, I run them straight up, using garbage ties to tie it to the power cable on the drive above and bundle it all together at the top(or to the side of an empty 5¼ bay)


Quote:
the store that I bought it from was selling the PSUs for more than the new cases with PSUs, so I took a case.


thats how I got my first atx case..still use it too :)


Quote:
. Unfortunatley, those holes aren't very big, thus I get little air coming from them



I alway cut the grill out to get better airflow but, if you don't have a dremel or drill and small drill bits it's hard to do. I orginally drilled holes in the front too..eventually I cut an 80mm hole and put an 80mm fan grill over it so it wouldn't look bad(cleaning the drill holes got to be a pain



Quote:
I'm not sure how I would accomplish that. The entire bottom plate is solid metal, with the exeption of a 2" Dia. air grill.


you could use double sided tape(the wide stuff with the foam in the middle) to stick the 5¼ adapter down but there is a risk of it coming lose if the case is moved...drilling two(or four) holes and using metal screws or nut&bolt are safer



Quote:
I'd like to know where your system thermomter is. I'd also like to know just what kind of a CPU your running, and whether or not it's idle, and if it's oc'ed or not


my bad, when you said 'system temp' I thought you meant northbridge(mobo) temp not cpu temp

current temps(mbm5):
ambient temp - 25ºC
celeron 1.2@1.6 - 34ºC idle..5-7ºC more under full load
mobo - 25ºC
maxtor - 30ºC
voodoo5 5500 - gpu1 29ºC gpu2 28ºC


IMO increasing the intake airflow by cutting out the metal grill would net you the best results, it would lower your case temp a bit and reduce the time it takes to cool the case down.


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 Post subject: Re: Great Idea for system cooling, too bad no one makes the
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:30 am 
Boy in Black
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Belboz99 wrote:
Actually, the intake fan rests just above the HS, so it is very effective. Basically, it's sucking in all the hot air the HSF blows out. I don't see how this could be a problem
The fan is on top of the PS? Still, the second FAN is not really effective. Like I said, as long as ONE fan is exhausting air, new air has to come in anyway...with or without the fan. Seventh item down: http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/pdf/Tu ... 510_vs.pdf

Quote:
Actually, my HSF is right behind my HDD, so I think this ariflow is pretty much optimal. I don't have any other good intake areas.
I'd rather have a swath of air going across my motherboard, memory, and hit the HS/F and northbridge on it's way out. More vital parts. Again, having air come in from the HD area pretty much gives air a straight path in then out right across the case, and the bottom half now just tumbles around building heat which can actually raise the total ambient through convection. Nothings getting the good air but your HDD's. And no matter what you do, the air around the CPU is the average case's ambient temp anyway. Well, unless you have a duct directly to it. I'd still try and cool the other parts in the case besides the HDD's.

Optimal isn't a realitive idea or theory.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:01 pm 
Max [Ph]otographer
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Well, I just got paid today. I now have a check for $200 to go in the bank :).

So, I decided to buy a new case. I went with the "MAXTOP Signature Series Type II Mid Tower PC" w/o PSU. Only cost $26 + $15 S&H. So, for $41 I got a case that is either going to have a 120mm fan in the back, or 2x 80mm fans (read reviews to see what I mean). It's also got an 80mm top fan and an 80mm side fan.

Well, I'll be damned. Newegg needs to update their pages! I just checked the manufacturer link to see what sizes of fans it had and they went and changed the whole thing around! Now it's got some stupid neon blue front pannel and a rear 92mm fan! Damn, that sucks.

http://www.maxtop.com/pc_csx-147k2f.html
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDe ... 017&depa=1

I think I'm going to go cancel my order now,
Damn,

Dan O.


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