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 Post subject: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:36 pm 
Clawhammer
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Are we nearing an end of an era?


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:29 pm 
Smithfield
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It's still two generations down the road and the original source material is saying Intel wants Haswell to compete with ARM in the tablet market as well as provide better AIO solutions.

I seriously doubt though that Intel will follow through with this idea. They're going to make a lot of people unhappy.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:56 pm 
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I personally think Intel would be walking a tightrope... who do we piss off? Our customers? Or our stockholders?


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:02 am 
Clawhammer
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Why not? It works for discrete video cards where the ram and GPU are soldered onto the PCB. I'm sure the mobo makers are salivating at the prospects of becoming what would essentially be an AIB for the CPU market, selling "discrete CPU" gear with the CPU and ram soldered onto a PCB that sports a few PCIe slots. It's already done for smartphone and tablet markets. Complete with soldered-on NAND storage.

I personally don't like this trend. In the short term, sure Intel will be shooting itself in the foot here? But long term screw those who upgrade from one CPU to another? Intel sells 2x CPUs then, for every 1 motherboard, for those upgraders. Certainly, there could be cost benefits to OEMs, and that is likely to be the majority of the market, I suppose.

But really, I wonder how many people nowadays actually upgrade their computers? I'm talking about the mainstream segment, not the enthusiast. Almost all my built upgrades include both cpu and mobo. Yes, it would suck for the enthusiast, to be forced to purchase what are essentially server-grade parts, to get interchangeable parts. But somehow I don't think Intel gives two shits for the power user or enthusiast market as they stare down ARM and salivate over the global ultra-low TDP mobile market where devices are flying off the shelves and where upgrades mean real total device upgrades.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:21 am 
Smithfield
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GPUs are different. NVIDIA and AMD both provide a reference design that other manufacturers use as a blueprint. In this case, the motherboard manufacturers are now responsible for more than just the motherboard. Not to mention if Intel comes out with 20 different flavors of an architecture, the board manufacturer will have to supply multiple versions of their motherboard SKUs for each version of processor. And if they have to replace a defective board, which could be caused by anything, then the both parts have to be replaced.

And if you're mentioning GPUs, you may as well tell me they should solder the RAM onto the board.

But yes, it would make sense to do this because nobody really upgrades their CPU. But Intel has to convince the world around them to change in order to do this right.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:19 pm 
Clawhammer
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LatiosXT wrote:
But yes, it would make sense to do this because nobody really upgrades their CPU. But Intel has to convince the world around them to change in order to do this right.


Yeah, just like Redmond did with win8ate and turning all our monitors into a bigazz GPS interface.

I'm not so sure anything is much different between the GPU and CPU worlds. From here forth whatever Intel wants, Intel will get. Feels like time is now to find and scoop up solder stocks. Before we turn around everything is going to be fixed and glued.

10 years ago the mobo was responsible for memory controller, integrated graphics, sound, networking, disk controller, diskette driver, USB and what not. There was a lot of room to wiggle with features, extra chips, extra cooling or extra slots. Today the items still around either migrated to the chip itself or disappeared, except for USB. With that also disappeared whatever room MB makers had for differentiation. Their product are essentially commodities.

Once network card and USB controller moves to the chip and PCIe storage gets traction there will be no need for chipset, what will the MB makers do? Paint the PCIe slot red and charge more for it? Draw a skull on the PCB? I don't think it's really Intel killing the MB market, but MB makers telling Intel that they are done with it and want to do some other thing.

Just imagine an end to Intel releasing a new CPU chip based on current architecture, but with a 1x multi (100Mhz baseclock?) boost, for the same price as current chips, and then the prior chips drop in price. Now imagine that savvy consumers know this, so that they spend months waiting for Intel to release faster CPUs, since they are integrated on the motherboard, instead of simply purchasing CPU + mobo today, and then purchasing faster CPU some time in the future. Also, imagine the hassle that will come of this, since Windows needs to be re-activated for every new mobo (now CPU upgrade equals a new mobo, since soldered on). OEM Windows customers will be out of luck.

This whole idea seems somewhat suicidal to some of their important market segments, just like Microsoft's suicidal idea to force a Tablet interface onto Desktop Windows users with Win8. This might lead to an expansion of Intel's pilot program for in-the-field CPU upgrades. Perhaps they will ship all of their CPUs with the capability for higher clock speeds, but limit them in firmware somehow. Then when you want to "upgrade" your CPU, you simply purchase an unlock key for a faster CPU. Scary when you think about it, that in that sort of future, people who "overclock", WOULD be considered stealing. (Cracks for CPUs, stolen unlock codes, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:43 pm 
Smithfield
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kleinkinstein wrote:
10 years ago the mobo was responsible for memory controller, integrated graphics, sound, networking, disk controller, diskette driver, USB and what not. There was a lot of room to wiggle with features, extra chips, extra cooling or extra slots. Today the items still around either migrated to the chip itself or disappeared, except for USB. With that also disappeared whatever room MB makers had for differentiation. Their product are essentially commodities.

Except the memory controller, integrated graphics, disk controllers, and most of the USB hubs were provided by Intel. Intel does not make network chips, sound chips, or other low-bandwidth interfaces that hook into the PCH. And even in today's SoCs, someone else does sound and networking, and in ARM's case, the graphics. There's facilities in the chip itself for connections, but someone else does the handling. So the only competitive edge Intel has over ARM if they get down on their level of performance/watt is they have a GPU, but that's probably not saying much considering they're competing with PowerVR and NVIDIA, and it wasn't until just recently Intel made something considered viable.

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Once network card and USB controller moves to the chip and PCIe storage gets traction there will be no need for chipset, what will the MB makers do? Paint the PCIe slot red and charge more for it? Draw a skull on the PCB? I don't think it's really Intel killing the MB market, but MB makers telling Intel that they are done with it and want to do some other thing.

No need for a chipset? There are still quite a few low bandwidth parts on motherboards in demand that need to be connected somehow, someone needs to handle them. The chipset isn't going away, it's just changing definitions. Besides, what's stopping motherboard makers from going beyond what Intel gives them? Z68 has no native USB3.0 support, so they tacked it on. Only 2 SATA 6Gbps ports, so they added more via 3rd party chips.

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Perhaps they will ship all of their CPUs with the capability for higher clock speeds, but limit them in firmware somehow. Then when you want to "upgrade" your CPU, you simply purchase an unlock key for a faster CPU. Scary when you think about it, that in that sort of future, people who "overclock", WOULD be considered stealing. (Cracks for CPUs, stolen unlock codes, etc.)

This doesn't buy them anything. If you are going to sell a part capable of better features and lock them, you're going to have to test it with those features unlocked to make sure they can handle it. Otherwise they'll be selling time bombs.

Also the whole thing with Windows 8 and Metro, sure, radical change. But in this case, it doesn't affect anyone but the end users. Integrating the CPU with the motherboard affects more than just the end users. Metro may affect developers, but they don't have to use Metro. Otherwise if Microsoft really wanted to force Metro down our throats, Metro would be the only thing available.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:28 pm 
Clawhammer
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If you listen to the latest UBS Technology Conference presentation from Intel, the speaker (Kirk Skaugen, leader of the PC group) noted that the big growth area for desktop PCs was, in fact, the "all-in-one" category - he cited a 30% CAGR for the last couple of years. He further noted that the next "big" form factor for desktops would be sort of a giant, portable (with handles, battery, etc.) touch-screen all-in-one. This, he remarked, would be the way that Intel would try to help spur a demand to refresh the desktop which - according to him - had not seen much refresh action these days (obviously). The move to focusing on BGA, especially as these all-in-ones become portable/with batteries, is a power-efficiency move to lower overall platform power, which is probably not as optimal with the LGA chips.

I don't think LGA will go away, and I think Intel will keep the enthusiasts covered, but I don't expect that Intel is foolish enough to think that the majority of desktop users want a big tower anymore. For us gamers, I expect there will be a move to on socket (the "E" one), and we'll get a much wider variety of chips there. A perfect way to use the latest process node + design on the high volume, power-efficiency, integration-focused products while giving enthusiasts more power-unconstrained, no-IGP-wasting-die-space kinds of products.

This is the future, as they see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:49 pm 
Smithfield
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The one intent I can infer from this is that Intel doesn't want a DIY market anymore.

A BGA CPU solution makes sense for custom, built to order boards like OEMs do, and such boards make sense further in laptop or AIO formfactors where thickness is a factor. And this isn't really revolutionizing the desktop experience. Let's take HP's convertible laptops or even the Windows 8 convertibles. Sure they're not 20", but they effectively provide the same experience: turn it into a laptop when you're doing stationary work, flip it over into a tablet or pull it out of the docking statino when you want that form factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:39 pm 
Boy in Black
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That's the same feeling I get LatiosXT, but from the article alone. Intel would be cutting a still large majority out (us) if they only sell for OEM's and do this BGA/soldered on your board approach. It's suicide unless they really feel there's only tablets left to sell too.

Boutiques would die off, builders would die off; they'd just really pigeon-hole themselves into niche markets and really stoop down to Qualcomm IMO...not compete, stoop. There's many angles to this article that could be taken, but I really think they're making hype and more than likely mis-reading Intel's actual intent.

Could you not also say Haswell will be BGA only and not be talking about Intel CPU's in general? Could Haswell really be aimed directly at the tablet/smart phone and just leave it at that? That this article continues on all on their own and [speculates] it's the future in general for Intel CPU's is a bit naive IMO. Is it assuming that the Tick and the Tock must be in the same format? Broadwell may still very well be in a socket while Haswell was BGA only and tablet (or whatever) bound. Skylake could be for tablets and Skymont for us in that same point.

If I were them, I'd be seeing the current i3/i5/i7 splits and the sockets and chips that go with it, which add confusion, and just want to solidify the products and what they're intended for. Maybe we're just lucky and are finally going to get our wishes in getting the number schemes under control so we don't need geeks in forums to sort them all out for us as consumers. Just look at Newegg today and dive through the i3's and i5's you'd purchase...it's a mess. i7's too in the sockets, cores, speed.

Yeah, I'm thinking the article is just pulling the trigger on very basic assumptions. Anton Shilov (Resume, please) is in fact basing the article on other sites, and other sites, and really nothing hard. You know the old game right? Make a circle of 6, whisper in one ear and see what you get back. IMO, it's suicide the way it's written. Customers (OEM and us, boutiques included) would not have options and stock holders would lose money. So, Asus would have to make only 3 boards? Silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Chumly wrote:
That's the same feeling I get LatiosXT, but from the article alone. Intel would be cutting a still large majority out (us) if they only sell for OEM's and do this BGA/soldered on your board approach. It's suicide unless they really feel there's only tablets left to sell too.

Boutiques would die off, builders would die off; they'd just really pigeon-hole themselves into niche markets and really stoop down to Qualcomm IMO...not compete, stoop. There's many angles to this article that could be taken, but I really think they're making hype and more than likely mis-reading Intel's actual intent.

Could you not also say Haswell will be BGA only and not be talking about Intel CPU's in general? Could Haswell really be aimed directly at the tablet/smart phone and just leave it at that? That this article continues on all on their own and [speculates] it's the future in general for Intel CPU's is a bit naive IMO. Is it assuming that the Tick and the Tock must be in the same format? Broadwell may still very well be in a socket while Haswell was BGA only and tablet (or whatever) bound. Skylake could be for tablets and Skymont for us in that same point.

If I were them, I'd be seeing the current i3/i5/i7 splits and the sockets and chips that go with it, which add confusion, and just want to solidify the products and what they're intended for. Maybe we're just lucky and are finally going to get our wishes in getting the number schemes under control so we don't need geeks in forums to sort them all out for us as consumers. Just look at Newegg today and dive through the i3's and i5's you'd purchase...it's a mess. i7's too in the sockets, cores, speed.

Yeah, I'm thinking the article is just pulling the trigger on very basic assumptions. Anton Shilov (Resume, please) is in fact basing the article on other sites, and other sites, and really nothing hard. You know the old game right? Make a circle of 6, whisper in one ear and see what you get back. IMO, it's suicide the way it's written. Customers (OEM and us, boutiques included) would not have options and stock holders would lose money. So, Asus would have to make only 3 boards? Silly.

Believe me, I'm no business major, but aren't enthusiasts already a niche market? Aren't the vast majority of Wintel computers prebuilt? Add to this the steady migration from desktop units to laptops and tablets, and I get the distinct impression that enthusiasts such as we who like to roll our own and choose our own mobo/CPU/RAM combo are not exactly on Intel's radar. We're just a blip. If that.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:03 pm 
Clawhammer
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Indeed, just a pimple on a gnats ass. It's always our inflated ego of self that skews our REALity. Look across the generations, it's mobile, it's Atom, it's a soldered SoC, and it's a welded and shut case. Yes, pun fully intended.

As we tug at the lint in our navels by pontificating our LGA desires, I find it knee slapping funny that Intel has no comment and had yet to state otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:21 pm 
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We are Oven, we are. But what I'm pointing to is everyone else making a business of being a good builder too. Look at all the ads and reviews in MPC alone. If it's not Dell or HP putting out their stamped out shit, it's who? It's us single users elevated and making a business with them too. One couldn't even fathom to build a PC if this comes out, let alone put one up to review unless you're an OEM already.

What if I wanted to start OvenMaster PC, Inc based upon this BGA only? I need a whole lot of info just handed to me from Intel directly, or Dell/HP would just run amuck as OEM's. I couldn't compete and they'd be cutting people out of competition. It's just not feasible to say "you need me, so just do it...and figure my pins out." It's never worked.


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 Post subject: Re: Haswell will be the last interchangeable desktop proc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:15 pm 
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I'm calling this BS now. All the tech guys are picking this apart just as I did. Haswell got re-directed in Intel and didn't fit "reviewers mindsets or plans". EVERY tech guy worth their salt is just saying it's just for that chip, not the entire company's future. This guy is trying out for the INQ, not someone to get actual tech news from.

World's going to end anyway on Dec21st, right fear mongers? Not trashing you guys and more the shit you're reading and not weighing logically, but come on. It's MPC, not Reddit.

The socket will live on. There's no plausible angle against it. Just don't hope for Haswell in your 2013 super build. Why? Because you have enough and you'll wait for the next one.


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