Windows RT's Browser Handling is a "Return to the Digital Dark Ages," Mozilla Says

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misterz100

Windows allowing third party application is what I like most about it. With a PC you can do anything, to limit it well I think it's going against what Windows has stood for.

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NavarWynn

As usual, MS will leverage it's market share and try to remove any competition. Crap like this does make me vomit a bit everytime I see it, but it's also what I expect from companies like MS.

The only reason this tactic will be successful (again) is because there is no plausible competition. By plausible competition I of course mean an OS that OEMs can adopt and provide with the idiot boxes that fill Walmart, and Best Buy. Until there is such a competitor, MS can and will fill the world with more screen wasting filth and crap like 'ribbons' and 'metro UI'.

But we gave them the power to do that to us. Most of us (myself included) have an MS OS on one or more of our machines. I've owned well over a dozen machines over the years w/ MS OSes on them, DOS6.22, win 3.11, 95, NT, 98, XP, XP 64, vista, & now 7. Sure, I only paid retail for a few copies, but I've also bought several new boxes w/ preinstalled OSes, so as much as I might feel that this crap really sucks, I've got no one but myself to blame... Unless you've NEVER bought a box w/ preinstalled Win OR bought a box copy, you too have no else to blame but yourself.

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misterz100

Honestly I think the ribbons thing is genius. Makes everything look better, easier to find, cleaner looking etc. I'm a more advanced computer user but when I use word everything is just right there and doesn't look butt ugly. Win 7 is definitely the best windows instalment I've used.

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dugn

I'm not sure why Apple gets a free ride to lock down browser options on the iPad, but everyon'es up in arms about Microsoft doing the exact same thing on their new "iPad Compete" platform.

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bling581

There are other browsers you can get. I have one on my iPhone 4S called SkyFire.

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Mortal_M

Because that is expected from Apple and iPad users won't care anyway ;)

But seriously they talked about this double standard a few podcast ago.
Podcast #182 25 min in the podcast.

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Refuge88

While this isn't false...

It is a BS reason for why the double standard exists against MS.

While I don't agree with it, they have the right to do it if Apple did too.

I think it is total BS personally though, I have been using computers since I was 5 (My father worked at Intel and taught me with Dos). I've been building them since I was 12. I have had many different computers in my short 23 years of life.

Not once have I ever willingly used IE (Work computers only). The moment I started browsing the web it was Netscape, for awhile I used Safari, toyed with Firefox for a bit, now I'm in love with Chrome.

But IE has never been a choice for me.

Is it just me or have things become increasingly hostile in the technology world this last couple of years?

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aarcane

Actually now you can install third party browsers on iProducts.

However, Apple's insistence that I shouldn't be able to is just one of the many reasons I don't use their stuff, advise all my friends against them, and openly mock anyone who foolishly chooses to use an iProduct.

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EKRboi

blah blah blah... if for some dumb reason MS actually does something like this. id be willing to bet it will only be a matter of time before someone "cracks" it to allow it to run whatever browser you want. if it can run in metro the functionality is there.. good job MS for wasting a bunch of employees time and your own money on crap that will be reversed!

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limitbreaker

so you think a underground version of firefox running only on a few devises of people like you and me is enough to be a driving force to have a competing browser on RT?

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Budman_NC

Paul! You need to jump in here. Do you think EC browser choice commitments and the DOJ-Microsoft settlement are being violated? (Well, you did provide links) We've been down this road already and agreements have been made and this "appears" to be a violation of those agreements. The EU didn't take Apple or LeapFrog to court for this, so shouldn't we be asking/discussing what makes M$ so different? Is the security issue real or a loop hole? No one wants to be vulnerable to malware or would we be? Is the Windows Metro environment more secure by its very nature or because its restricted for 3rd party apps? And what about IE's active-x BHO's? Are FF's add-ons less secure than active-x?

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Carlidan

A better person the weigh into this subject would be Bourman. Since she knows more about law.

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RtDK

I have varying doubts in my mind whether this policy will change or not once MS sees the flareup of hate over this, warranted or not. If MS learned anything from the Vista/7 thing, they'd do well to remember to not piss off the developers and people they're selling to.

Unless they've already forgotten said learned lessons, in which case the people's wallets will be more than happy to remind them.

I was on the fence about upgrading to Win8, but with all the stuff I'm hearing, I'm starting to back away from any commitments I might have had.

1) I don't have a touchscreen monitor on either my Ultrabook OR desktop.
2) I'm PERFECTLY content with Win7.
3) Who knows what other unpleasant surprises MS might yet unveil--if not on ARM, on their own native processors?
4) They haven't exactly worked to highlight any advantages Classic Win8 would have over Win7--which I'd be using all the time. Until a date which I can custom-build my own tablet computer, I'm not interested in buying a slightly-improved Win7.
5) No Media Center on less expensive editions? I mean, I'm not one that uses Media Center much, or at all, but that seems like a step BACKWARD to me.

I didn't want to think Microsoft would be ignorant enough to forget the valuable lessons they had to pay with blood to learn from Vista, and I would like to think they'll reconsider their choices, but if they're not careful ... who knows how the market will react to all this?

I'm not making any predictions yet--the online world seems to be divided on their love or hate for what they've seen of Win8 so far, and if the past is any indication, that doesn't mean much. Actual launch is when we'll know this new software's fate....

Hoping for the best though, for their sake.

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loozer

Windows RT is completely useless. Mozilla has already proven that it's impossible to build a "true" WinRT/Metro web browser.

Any REAL programs will be in the "Legacy" (or as I say "normal") desktop mode. WinRT has a few good traits, but it's way too crippled and restricted to succeed.

tl;dr
Windows 8 ARM is screwed. x86 lives on!(for now)

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shotgun-eddie

I agree with rseding91. Each of you who are bitching should also be complaining that when you purchased your iPad you could not download any application you wanted that could run in privileged mode.

Antitrust because MS will not support a completely open platform on their tablet for you? Right, and I will go after LeapFrog because I cant get the app I want running on my kids LeapPad. Give me a break.

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Ghost XFX

Yep, Microsoft and Intel have much in common. When things get hot, snuff the competition out by any means possible...

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TrollBot5000

Makes me think of that footage of Bill Gates on trial with the netscape fiasco. I'm sure if Mozilla does in fact take Micro$hit to court then Gates will be calling Steve Ballmer to coach him on how to nervously dance around hard hitting prosecuting questions and answer vaguely. Then again Ballmer seems like the type of sleaze to which lying comes naturally. Could you imagine the shitstorm this would've created if they were pulling this greedy evil stunt on x86/x64 architectures?? I thought for a moment well you could just give M$ the middle finger and whipe it and install Linux which would solve any browser issues BUT yeah the UEFI secure boot thing gave Linux the finger right back. Oh Microsoft how I loathe thee. XP the last bastion of a stable windows experience. I've got a XP machine that I recently dual booted with Win 7 with a 1 TB Samsung Spinpoint as a media server shared on both OS. Check this out. I tried copying some files over to my Linux laptop with 7 and opening the folders was taking FOREVER. So I restarted and booted into XP and tried again...wow look at that the folders open and everythings fine. I know it's not related to the article but I thought I'd just share that recent anomaly just to reiterate that Windows 7 is just vista SP3 and its overrated and its not as stable as XP and it sucks and it sucks and it sucks and it sucks and windows 8 is gonna be even worse especially on ARM. and it sucks and it sucks Linux LinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinuxLinux See I cant live up to my new identity as TrollBot if I don't add trolling things at the end. They see me trollin they hatin.

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Recidivist

I don't think troll means what you think it means.

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TrollBot5000

Im just messin around man. I've seen real trolls on here. Something happened to my main account so I created this one as a joke.

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whiskeymcclinton

It sounds like Developers will be able to release any apps they like in the new Metro Interface, including Mozilla releasing a FireFox Browser. It is only the old "Classic" Desktop that will be restricted.
It appears then, that Microsoft's plan is to migrate ARM tablet development away from the mouse-friendly desktop, and towards the touch-friendly Metro interface.

This would also circumvent any anti-trust issues, as 3rd parties won't be banned from the whole OS, just certain areas. Apple does this all the time, and it hasn't landed them in court...yet.

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Zoandar

As always, vote with your wallet.

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Budman_NC

Exactly! Revenue failing to meet projected/expected earnings for investors will bring about change.

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alexw1234

Two thumbs up! Microsoft couldn't find my wallet if they tried. Personally I don't think they are at this point.

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Blues22475

Tbh, I don't see what Mozilla is bawwwing about. It's not as if they are missing out considering Windows 8 probably won't be a big success (given how MS's whole pattern works of good then bad then good then bad again).

The way I understand it, it's made for tablets. So that's not a big loss there. Granted Idgaf about tablets, but I do see their usefulness.

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Ashton2091

After testing the Developer Preview, I was a bit optimistic about Windows 8. I'm not one to say anything will fail simply because, I want something to complain about. Change can be good. But JEEZ! This is getting ridiculous. No start menu orb (sure, there's a hack for that, but still), Media Center at extra cost, and now THIS. If Microsoft really wants to play in the tablet market...then they should prob stop pissing their customers off. The way I see it, no matter which browser if your favorite...developers made the Windows experience what it is. As of now, we have choices. Microsoft build the foundation and developers did the rest. It's one giant ecosystem. There's tons of applications for Windows. Tons of choices. Diskeeper or PerfectDisk? Firefox, Chrome, or Opera? Norton or AVG, I could go on and on.

This kind of behavior is only going to push vendors and developers away. Oh and consumers.

Windows 8 has potential...although I do think Metro is a bit early for desktops, considering that most of us don't have touch monitors. It's right on time for tablets though. But again, these kind of shenanigans are going to get them nowhere.

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dgrmouse

Big deal. Mozilla isn't going to be able to run with administrative privilege tokens or make use of system calls. If it prevents their fancy-pants run-all-the-time background service updater from phoning home every ten minutes, then I'm not going to shed one tear.

The real goal behind this outcry is to undermine the principle of least privilege in hopes of circumventing some TPM restrictions. These tablets are NOT going to be open platforms in the same way that desktop machines are, although the tradeoff means that rootkits and malware should NEVER be an issue; this would be a pretty huge advantage to have over Android and iOS.

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iheartpcs

Every story I read about Windows 8 confirms my belief that Windows 8 will fail. Epically.

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theabsinthehare

It's fate. Every other Windows OS since 3.1 has sucked.

3.1 Good
95 Bad
98 Good
98 SE Bad
2000 Good
ME Bad
XP Good
Vista Bad
7 Good
8 Bad

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whiskeymcclinton

3.1 Good
95 Bad
98 Good
98 SE Good
ME Bad
2000 Good
XP Bad
XP Service Pack 1+ Good
Vista Bad
Vista Service Pack 1+ Good
7 Good
8 ???

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Budman_NC

Yes, this is more refined and should be agreeable to most everyone here. I'm still running XP SP3 and Vista 32 SP2 without issue. Also, XP is still receiving security updates from WU.

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praetor_alpha

This, essentially:

https://mthruf.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/job-fails-moving-in-cycles.jpg

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jnite

I can't help but think that in a few years this statement will be popping up.

Windows 9 is what Windows 8 was supposed to be. Just like how Windows 7 was what Vista was supposed to be.

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rseding91

If Mozilla doesn't like it they can make there own globally popular operating system and put there browser on it.

Mozilla doesn't own Windows - Microsoft owns windows and it's just stupid that people think they can't bundle there software with there software.

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theabsinthehare

This isn't about bundling IE with Windows, this is about purposefully crippling the capabilities of other browsers at the OS level so that IE becomes the only viable browser.

This is illegal because when you operate a business in the U.S. you agree to abide by certain rules regarding fair business practices. One of those rules is that you can't go giving yourself an unfair advantage against third party competition, even if you're the provider of the service, or manufacturer of the product for which that competition is trying to provide an add-on product or service for.

You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

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Strhopper

such an idiotic statement. Nothing to do with bundling software. Microsoft isn't going to allow me to do what I want with the software I have bought.

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Morete

We could use a third closed-source OS. The Big 2 just aren't cutting it.

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akrazyassho

No, no and no. Your comment pissed me off so much I had to login just to reply. I'm sorry you like IE over other browsers, its not a horrible browser but its not a terribly good one neither. And at what point in time did modzilla say they wanted to bundle their browser into the OS?? Plain and simple microsoft is blocking other browsers from running on windows 8 RT, this is taking it a step too far. Thats like buying a (normal gas powered) car and Toyota telling you that you may only use toyota branded gas stations... You're pretty much saying MS should be able to do as they want w/ their OS just because they are the big gun. Again I will say it, no, and no.

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rseding91

1. Did I say that I liked IE? - nope.
2. You pick on my word choice instead of the meaning behind it: Microsoft owns the product and they can build it how they want. If you don't like how they built it, don't buy it.
3. As for your comment about the car - see the other comment left by someone87.
4. I am saying MS can build there OS how they want because it's THEIR OS. There are plenty of companies now that build hardware and or software that only works with other hardware/software from that company. Things such as: lenovo laptops only work with lenovo brand wireless cards, MAC OS only installing on Apple certified hardware, XBox's only allowing microsoft certified hard drives, PS3s only allowing the PS3 software to be installed and i'm sure there are volumes more. Of those examples you can hack around them to make them work but that's not the point, you can probably do the same thing with the new Windows 8 RT.

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someone87

You may not like it, but that's actually how the free market works. I know the government likes to mess things up with their anti-trust law's and such, but that's not the free market.
If you bought a Toyota, knowing full well you could only use Toyota brand gas, the problem is? You buy Intel Motherboards, knowing they will only use Intel CPU's (likewise with AMD). You would have to be really stupid to complain about an AMD CPU not working in an Intel motherboard, yet that's basically what you are doing here. Or for a software example, how about Photoshop not being able to open Gimp files?
Microsoft has the ability to lock down, or freely open their OS as much, or little as they want. As does Toyota Intel or Adobe.
Google does what they want with their products, do you rail against them? Everyone likes to attack MS, and if they make (in our eyes) a bad business decision by not allowing third party browsers in their classic mode, so what? You and I will A. Not buy Windows 8 ARM, or B. Buy it, hack it/figure out a way to get around it, or C. Use IE, continue to hate it, but live with the fact that's life.
If you willingly buy a MS product knowing the features about it, you can complain all you want about it, you have that right, but indicating MS is wrong (from a moral/legal POV) is ignorant.
BTW, did you know if you buy a Toyota, and the engine goes bad, you need a Toyota engine, a Ford or GM (without heavy modification, not the point) will not work? Amazing huh?

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Ashton2091

Good point. Although, Windows is a completely different beast. How so? Remember when Windows came with very little out of the box? Well, it still does...but I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. I bet you have a ton of non-microsoft software. The third party developers play a BIG role in shaping the Windows experience. Microsoft lays the foundation. They are not responsible for the entire experience. So, when you piss off developers (wrong or right), then...that could mean trouble. Of course people will get upset about it. Some don't understand what they are actually upset about and some do. None the less, its going to happen. Why because we are consumers. Microsoft can do as they wish. But let me paint you a picture: Remember Windows Vista? It's actually a pretty stable OS now. But when it first dropped...oh...yeah...it was bad. What was the entire selling point of Windows 7? "We listened to our customers", said Microsoft. Customer's and developers do not like when they are not being listened to. Again, right or wrong...this can have a negative effect in a large way.

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someone87

Right, the entire point, we (as consumers) have the right to get pissed about stuff we don't like, but MS has no moral, and marginal legal obligation to support third party browsers. We as the consumers will simply vote with our money/support.
I think it's stupid, and MS has their head up their $%^@!%#$^$, but point is, they owe me nothing.
And for what it's worth, I liked Vista when it first came out. :-P

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Ashton2091

gotcha. that makes sense. lol, i too liked it. i had a prob with the slow file transfer speeds etc...but a lot was fixed with the updates. ran it until win7 was released.

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Strhopper

^this

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Strhopper

^this

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