Windows 8 Off to a Worse Start Than Vista

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maxeeemum

Hey Max PC! You use to shut off the comments after 7 days. ???

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maxeeemum

??????? "most of us" ????????

"real IT Pros" unite

Woo Hoo!!!

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Bandit5906

For those of you who are not fond of the Metro UI why not just use Stardoc Start8?

Every one of my customers who has switched to that are more than happy with Windows 8 and they all are in love with the speed.

For me it was a lot easier to have them use the Start8 than to try to teach them how to use Metro!

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whr4usa

+1

StarDock is an excellent company, too!

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pastorbob

I was talking to my 20 year old niece on Sunday about smart phones. My wife had shown her the new Android smart phone I had bought for her and my niece's comment was "I don't like Android phones. My iPhone is so much easier to use. I thought the Android phone I used to have was confusing and hard to navigate. I can find my apps a lot faster on the iPhone without that confusing home screen."

Even when I showed her I could access the apps on my wife's phone just as quickly and easily she still kept insisting that the iPhone was easier.

I think that conversation with her is a mirror of the many of the statements I see on this site from the haters of Windows 8. "Stop confusing me with facts and logic, I just plain hate Windows 8 (or Android phones, or "fill in the blank"), no matter what you say! You're never going to change my mind!"

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beta212

I think your comment is partly true, there are those that are just stuck on a brand. YET, for complication in the Windows 8 UI, look no further than the missing sound button! I have to click 3 times to get access to the sound button, compared with 0 before.

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Vano

The only reason it sells "well" is because it's hard to get non-windows8 computer nowadays. Laptops are all w8 and if you want w7, you have to pay more a 100 bucks. This 100 buck just tells you how better w7 is.

Just got a w8 laptop, love to specs, but I'm ready put my fist through the display, so frustrated with this bullshit w8.

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whr4usa

logical fallacies abound

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geezup

Microsoft has been keeping track of all BSOD and errors reported via the troubleshooting tool built into microsoft where it asks to send the report to microsoft. Over 90 % of all BSOD are a direct result of poorly written drivers. Vendors make laptops or desktops such as DELL and when you buy the machine and it starts to blue screen why do people blame microsoft. You should be blaming Dell etc. Its funny how people blame microsoft and the real IT pros laugh at these people all the time lol.

Windows xp is dead and for those people that still use it have not used Windows 7 at all. If you have application compatability issues let me know I can write a shim and fix the issues for ya. Again if your a real IT guy these are non-issues.

The start menu is great once you setup the groups and charms its awesome , the built in search is also great , windows xp and the indexing tool is dead not sure what people are talking about.

New Task manager , new swap file ( better memory management) , Windows to Go , new print driver infastructure v 4 :
--Printer sharing does not require the installation of drivers that match the client architecture
--Driver files are isolated from each other, preventing driver filename conflicts
--A single driver can support a single device or multiple devices
--Drivers are typically smaller than version3 drivers, and installation times are typically faster than comparable version 3 drivers

Now back to the windows xp users have you ever tried to image windows xp and deploy without 3rd party tools ? Good luck - try MDT , AIK , WDS and you will understand how far windows 7 has gone. New wim image format , so many features that listing them here would be impossible. Its just plain stupid to say windows xp is still your choice of OS. For support of the latest direct x , to the latest drivers you would be stupid to stay with xp. Branch cache , Direct access , a real event viewer to writes errors properly. I mean windows xp event viewer was useless that alone deserves a windows 7 or 8 upgrade. I can keep going and going but ill stop here and argue with people that the IT world calls stuck on stupid.

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Paper Jam

I'm impressed with the efforts of yourself and whr4usa to educate everyone here, or rather correct their misconceptions about Windows 8. And certainly it has been streamlined and is much more secure verses previous incarnations of Windows. But here's the thing, I don't like Metro. And this makes me sad, because I thought that I would. I tried the evaluation copy, and I have an Xbox 360. Neither was able to win me over. Yes, it is cleaner and more functional than the start menu, but I rarely use the start menu. If I use it often it goes on the task bar, if I use it sometimes I leave it on the desktop, and if I use it once in a while then I dig for it in the Start menu. I feel about Metro like I feel about my "Avatar" on my Xbox, and that is that I am a grownup and have no need for something that appears to have been made for children. I get that MS is attempting to create a unified experience across their various platforms, and it will definitely appeal to some. I just don't like the direction MS is heading, and this is the future of Windows. I can't see Windows 9 or 10 being any kind of departure from 8. In the future, will I have to buy an iMac to get an OS that looks like it was made for grownups? Linux might also be an option, though it does seem like foul play that Windows 8 machines are shipping with locked bootloaders. RT I get, but x86 machines? That looks like an attempt to stifle competition. I want to note that I am not an IT guy, just a user that helps friends and family. If I am in error on anything technical, I apologize. But as a consumer, I don't think I am alone in my dislike of Metro.

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whr4usa

+1

that's a completely legitimate and accurate cirticism of a common and reasonable user scenario

the only reason I don't give your argument much weight (...and I love you right now Paper Jam, nothing aginst you! thank you for your commect btw) is that all you need to do to avoid using the Start Screen or 'metro' is put a "desktop shortcut" in your startup folder (or change a registry key or...) or/and use a utility similar to Start8 or/and change the default colorscheme++theme or/and manipulate the GUI options via 'advancedsystemproperties' or any other combintion of things... ...yes I understand the average user won't know enough to goto that effort and I despise Microsoft for not making "visual customization" as much of the one-stop-shop that Windows Phone 8, the 2012 family of server products or some of their lesser-known products like the MapPoint++Streets&Tips family wer for this generation (hence why I consider your criticisms completely warranted and fair...no rebuttal here from yours truly!)

P.S; thank you for your open-minded attitude and appraisal of our educational efforts

P.P.S; you're in technical err on the "locked bootloaders"
'secureBoot' is an open-source UEFI-standardized protocol which Windows 8's boot-time driver model, bootloader and kernel have become fully compliant with v2.3.1 or later
(whereas Windows 7 has partial compatability which was increased significantly with SP1 but unsupported and basically a 'hack' to force it working on very limited, specific hardware)
because it is an UEFI protocol Microsoft has no control over its use beyond requiring the capability to be present via its 'Logo' program for Windows RT/8 and requiring drivers to play nice with it for WHQL Certification
...the "default state" of UEFI secureBoot and how user-accessible it can be depends wholly on the firmware company, mainboard manufacturer and OEM combination in question ...the obvious exception being with Microsoft's Surface tablet family where Microsoft *IS* the OEM *and* firmware provider in question which is why I'll never buy a Syurface device despite my relatively high technical respect, business opinion of Msft

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matthewb

have to agree with most of what you say geezup. As a financial trader I run alot of closed source proprietary software on my workstation which at the moment doesn't work with Windows 8 and I don't have access to the source code to recompile for Windows 8. I also have a TechNet subscription and on my test PC have been using Windows 8 through Beta and the TechNet release in August, I don't agree with being forced to use the Start Screen, I don't like the compatibility between metro and classic UI - there is little to none. But I do like the performance and stability offered by Windows 8, and take away the Metro UI - for me it would be perfect.

Personally I would like to see Microsoft go back down the 9x and NT route and split for home use and business, there is a clear difference between the needs of a home user and a business.

Have to also agree its the plain ignorance of most people who don't uinderstand the underlying components that make up the Operating System. I remember the release of XP - it was hated, Vista - it was hated. I bet most of the people on here who are slating Win 8 did exactly the same with the XP or Vista that they love now. Simple fact of business - if you change something or do something new, it will be met with market resistance

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whr4usa

+1

I agree with your second paragraph but you're wrong about how to accomplish its goal and assuming it hasn't already happened

rather than me writing a wordy bestseller again (lol) for which I don't have time research these following terms as it relates to Microsoft specifically but also IT in general

- Virtual Desktop Infrastructure (part of MDOP 2012 I believe)
- User Experience Virtualization
- "Windows Thin PC"
- Windows Embedded 7/2009/6.1

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whr4usa

+1

"real IT Pros" unite, sir!

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Ghost XFX

They can't give W8 away for free if they tried too, and for some, they actually did. Think about the price point for a moment. W7 is still selling for double the cost of W8, and people are still willing to buy it regardless.

Selling slower than Vista? I have Vista, and was looking forwards to moving up to W8...until I found out what a monstrosity it was going to be. I was salty from my first buy among PCs, with ME. You see the god awful pattern here? Vista may be a glutton of a OS, but you can still build for that issue. W8? Don't insult my intelligence. I might not be the smartest person on earth, but I know a con job of an OS when I see one, all thanks to ME for teaching me.

I might upgrade to W7, even though I need an OS that will be compatible with Piledriver. Either way, thanks Microsoft, for screwing me over, twice. I'm not buying a damn thing from those idiots that's going to be another waste of time.

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geezup

http://wargeeks.org/showthread.php/11052-Windows-7-patches-for-Bulldozer-amp-piledriver-(AMD)

Lets do 5 minutes of research before we waste 10 minutes of typing.

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Ghost XFX

THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO PERSUADE ME TO BUY THAT CRAP.
(and by crap, I mean W8.)

That's my final decision.

Also, it didn't take long to put my thoughts out there about W8. Won't buy it, won't even think about it. Tell us when W9 comes along and I'll see then...

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whr4usa

+1

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Rift2

@@@JUNK@@@@

windows 9 better give you some options for install

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geezup

Options for install how about you try and use WAIK with SIM along with MDT and you will get all the options you need. 5 minutes of research goes a long way. Install options have been streamlined with new tools for deployments.

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whr4usa

+1

also EDT [Express Deployment Toolkit] for MPN members; designed for system builders and enthusiasts (simplified SIM)

P.S; @other real IT Pro geezup
WAIK == ADK [Assessment and Deployment Toolkit]

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PCWolf

My 2 Cents on Windows 8

Windows 8 was released TOO SOON!! There should be at least 10yrs between Operating Systems unless the previous OS was so bad, that a new one was needed. Windows ME was horrible & Vista needed to be replaced by windows 7 asap!!

The File Transfer Improvements of windows 8 & DX 11.1 could have been added to windows 7 as a Service Pack without trying to force people to buy Windows 8.

Windows 8 was made for Computer Idiots who might go buy a Mac because they find using a PC Confusing. It's Metro UI catering to Social Media Addicts, & people who's computer skills amount to Web Surfing & being on Facebook all day. Windows 8 has NO PLACE in any Business Environment.

This is Microsoft's attempt to push it's Microsoft Store, as they try to emulate Apples "Apple Store" & Increase is Profits by charging Developers $$$ for selling "Apps" that they could have made for the PC for FREE without having to pay Microsoft any fees. There is a reason why Steam Hates the Windows 8 Idea.

Also, I don't know about you, But the idea of using a Touch Screen for desktop Computing makes me cringe! having to sit at Arms Length all the time, Holding my arm out to touch Icons & navigate windows 8, soiling my screen with my greasy "Dorito Cheese" encrusted Fingers is not my idea of fun. The Touch UI is OK on a tablet or Laptop. But on a DT, No!!11!!!!

Happy New Years all! May 2013 bring us all new fun things!

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whr4usa

if you believe there should be a decade between OS' then always purchase the "business editions" of windows client and take full advantage of the Microsoft Support Lifecycle Policy's guaranteed 5 years of mainstream support and 5 years minimum extended support (Software Assurance customers can purchase up to an additional 5 years of premium security and hardware compatability support, starting with Vista, too!) and chose to not upgrade until then - just be prepared to lose lot of $$ over security issues (unless you're using a properly secured Windows 7 installation which I highly doubt)

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geezup

Well here is your 1 cent back since there is room for change. server 2012 also has the metro look how do you explain its not designed for enterprises ? Learn the UI and thats it. 90 % of people in the corporate world are locked out of their PC's , use folder redirection , roaming profiles etc. Why would anyone need to explorer their PC's if their documents are saved to shared drives ?? Give them the fresh UI and add just the apps they need to the new metro start button and we are done. It allows to give users just what they need and no more. Its actually great.

It has nothing to do with the store or whatnot. It comes down to 2 things.

1) Microsoft blames vendors for poorly written drivers so they decided to make their own devices to force vendors to follow microsoft SDK and Driver kit standards so there are no BSOD's and microsoft doesnt get a bad rep.
2) To unify their phone , tablet , PC and gaming consoles into one interface is the way to go. Look at what Apple , Linux ( ubuntu) and others are striving for. You need to step up your game.

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whr4usa

+1

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znod

There is no significant reason for 8 to exist except that the Metrobarf interface attracts phone and tablet enthusiasts. There are some new features that are decent (like Secure Boot), but for Secure Boot to work, one needs a UEFI computer. So, if you want Secure Boot, then you have to buy a new computer or, alternatively, just happen to have one that allows installation of UEFI (there are relatively few of these out there except for those designed for Win8). 8 boots faster, but who cares? These days MS argues that its newer OS's are good enough to preclude rebooting except when obviously necessary. With 8, MS has reached a new low (and lower than Apple) when it comes to control over installation. One way or another you can end up with a clean install disc. But, generally, it will be an upgrade disc. If you want to install or reinstall cleanly via an upgrade disc, then an earlier Win version still must be installed. I don't care for the reset option--which reinstalls the OS but not cleanly--particularly if you want to partition. Another way to get a clean install disc is to buy the OEM System Builder disc and use the new Personal-Use license. The disc is fairly expensive, but having one is a good idea if you want to extricate yourself from the clutches of MS/Your Computer Manufacturer/Bloatware, etc. Also, this combo is needed if you build your own rig. In this context, anyone that installs such a disc is considered to be a system builder. Go figure. MS doesn't let on to this fact in its System Builder EULA.

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whr4usa

the unification of GUIs across platforms is a positive and unlike with crApple products your objections to niche components of the overall UX can be themed or modified away

secureBoot is an UEFI protocol not an 8 feature, they simply made its bootloader and kernel compatible with it

UEFI can't be 'installed' and its adoption is more widespread than you think, OEMs just arn't making updates available (UEFI v2.0 is when secureBoot became standardized across implementations and v2.3 is what 8 supports)

faster boots == efficient internal design and resource scheduling
...the boot measure itself is irrelevant

Microsoft just keeps getting more and more open and well-documented and standards-compliant and Apple moves in the opposite direction constantly which jut shows how informed you truly are

my fellow IT Pro has already addresses your ignorance with regards to the images and media

the reset option isn't intended to be a clean install, you've been able to do a clean install from within the OS with 7 but had to provide media, 8 call this a "full reset", which is purposefully buried to avoid confusion and accidental loss of data via Id 10 T error-prone persons such as yourself

again with your disc and licensing ignorance (there's no seperate personal use license and it'd be unnecessary if it existed)

...you don't need that disc - just make your own with their free tools, you only need to buy licenses from them not media, support, rights etc.

their system builder license and product descriptions make this very clear and if you fail to read microsoft's documentation and websiteS on the matter then it is made abundantly clear by NewEgg and many others

please read more and learn!

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geezup

You are completely wrong on the windows 8 installtion disks. we roll out windows 8 on over 100 pc's and have not run into any weird issues with the rollout except for drivers not being around yet. Also learn to use the windows deployment tools to create a custom WIM file and learn how to deploy that properly. The real meat and potatoes is in the deployment tools that are avialable free from microsoft.

if you used the upgrade assistant look in the downloads folder in the users profile that your logged in as and you will find what your looking for. Use image burn and your all set with a install disk.

Windows 8 can be installed without having a previous install disk , you just have to get the right disk u idiot.

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whr4usa

+1

or create an image from disC* (not disk guys!!) and then use "ei.cfg remover" (the name is misleading as it doesn't actually remove it or checksums would fail) so that image can install any edition of that bitness

that worked for 7, same utility should work for 8, can't be done for vista or earlier but whom cares?

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thematejka

Any real enthusiast knows that Windows 8 brings some much needed features to Windows, as well as some improvements. A large factor to consider, however, when talking about the possibly lower sales of Windows 8 compared to Vista, is the fact that Windows 7 works so well. Windows 8 was pushed out pretty fast, and that coupled with the overall appeal for Windows 7 could make people just not BOTHER to upgrade. If you look at the capabilities of Windows 8, it is another tock, but I don't think people are ready for it, generally speaking,

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whr4usa

+1

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PCWolf

Windows 8 was made for 3 reasons:
1: IDIOTS who got confused browsing the old Start Menu.
2: MS pushing it MS Store because it wants to be like Apple.
3: MS Trying to cater to tablet Users.

I don't care about the faster Boot times of Windows 8. I only turn on my PC 1x a day, so a fast boot time does not warrant me dealing with that retarded Metro UI. As long as MS forces that fail Metro UI, I will not upgrade to Windows 8!

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geezup

1) it was made because browsing the old start menu was cumbersome , clicking start and looking for your program would be a teadious task as if you have lots of things installed will look cluttered and sloppy. You can now tile your programs and group them in the metro ui and it looks cleaner and sleeker.

2) It doesn't want to be like apple , if it was it would charge 3 k for a 500 dollar laptop

3) MS is not catering to anyone in particular. It want a seemless environment that is the same across all platforms. you learn one and you know them all. This is the future and from where I am standing I am already ahead of you - look back at ya

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whr4usa

+1

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bautrey

I don't think these results say much at all. Instead of dealing with percentages, deal with numbers and then compare the growth rates.

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whr4usa

+1

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Electrik

#150 -- Everybody thinks it sux.

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Mighty BOB!

People are satisfied with Windows 7. Why would they jump to Windows 8?

The same thing happened with Windows XP. It spread everywhere, people became satisfied with it, and when Vista came out, they didn't feel the need to switch. Of course on top of that was the wave of complaints about performance, and Microsoft also kinda shot themselves in the foot by waiting so long, which allowed XP to become more entrenched.

Now people don't feel any compelling reason to jump to Windows 8, and on top of it a lot of people hate the interface, or the things it doesn't do, or the things it does do that they don't like (e.g. the slow migration to a closed ecosystem). Plus, their Windows 7 computers are still awesome. These days it's hard to actually get an underpowered computer that becomes obsolete and needs to be replaced just a couple years later. I haven't changed the hardware in mine since like 2009 or 2010 and it still runs everything like a champion (consoles can partially be blamed for this; since they're the dominant factor in most studios' game engine tech, any modern computer can run any modern game because the hardware requirements for the game to run on a console are laughable).

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whr4usa

on your latter statement about hardware I agree with your conclusion and placement of blame on console but you're wrong about what's happening

it isn't because it's hard to get an underpowered system it's because all OEM hardware is underpowered

also though I understand what makes you think Microsoft is migrating slowly to a closed ecosystem, their success has been built on an open developement environment and private device ownership which would make no economic or technical sense for them to change... what's actually happening is a necessary strategic migration from top-down high-level definitions-based static-blacklisting into an ecosystem of bottom-up low-level hardware-based dynamic-whitelisting where instead of securable designs, less-insecure defaults and deployment able to be secured through additional effort and toolkits we'll now begin to see truly secure design and secure defaults with secure deployment without any additional effort...try to fathom for a moment how malware can be written for Windows Runtime, without purposefully lowering the default security configuration)

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geezup

I can actually agree with your statements windows 7 was great and there is no real reason to upgrade other than to stay ahead of the curve. But XP is dead windows 7 is still awesome.

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whr4usa

+1

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poppy211

metro is for 3 year olds useless

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gothliciouz

windows 8 it was clearly designed for kids who uses facebook,twitter, etc. the new interface is so simple/inferior even the desktop has this feeling of how would i say this..cute?..os for little girls? the rounded/corner windows, ribbon in explorer? and over-sized icons doesn't help it look serious.
but does it perform faster than win 7?...clearly i didn't notice any differences, all the little improvement could be released as update for win 7. but hey, ms won't do it.
this mobile/socialnet os should'va never been made. there's already this thing so called smart phone for that.

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geezup

Here is where your faults are : On hardware designed for windows 7 and you installed a newer more bloated OS and you dont see any difference. Don't you see what is wrong with your statement ? You didnt have to upgrade your hardware and the OS runs the same if not a little faster , with a lower RAM foot print at that. Your comments are based on observations which does not include any real testing.

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GuNNuP

My non computer savvy friend, Loves windows 8. By not computer savvy i mean he knows how to use the internet right. It is funny He loves Windows 8. He told me it was pretty cool. So yes you are right it is for the facebook, and general internet users. NOT for a os, to me Windows 8 should have been an add on to windows 7. Not a whole new OS

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Mighty BOB!

Law of diminishing returns. We've already passed the point (a couple years ago) where most day to day use cases (UI, browsing, folders, etc.) have a fast enough response time such that any improvements will be incremental and nobody will notice.

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Sovereign

I'm not touching it; I have no reason to. It does things I don't want (Start Screen, breaks my gadgets, no Start Menu) and doesn't offer anything I find worthwhile vs. the OS I have (Windows 7).

I feel like an OS that's totally touch-centric in a world that's still mostly NOT (hello corporate, education and people with laptops that are only a few years old) is silly anyway. And the market (if this is to be believed) is showing MS what a mistake they may have made.

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whr4usa

how does it break your gadgets?

how is your start menu different from the start screen..?

if you can't find anything worthwhile between 7 and 8 then you need to read more

the OS isn't so touch-centric
I don't know anybody personally using it with a touchscreen yet...

laptops, education, corporations all have more to gain from 8 than tablets or consumers do

you can believe this ll you want...it probably is accurate it just is useful for telling us exactly nothing, seeing as how there are most users, devices, public IPs now than there were then (thus a smaller percentage now is greater in absolute terms than some larger percentage then) and no methodology is given

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geezup

Agreed

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Bullwinkle J Moose

We should get a free copy of our choice, Windows 7 or 8

After all, we just increased the Maximum PC readership by about 4000% on this one article alone

Not bad for one boring weekend

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