Spanish Linux Group Targets Microsoft in Complaint to EU

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PCLinuxguy

So far when tinkering with laptops on display at stores to see if I can boot linux on it (to make sure it'll work if I buy it) I've had no issues turning secure boot off. Now whether the bios will allow booting from something that's not the hard drive is another matter. a few HPs I tested with secure boot on or off would not boot from USB despite selecting it, and an Asus and Acer had no trouble at all. But so far, I've not seen secure boot be an option that doesn't shut off on laptops. The Surface/RT however is a different story, and building your own system is as well as I've not seen anything there to limit the user.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Torvald's concern was that the ability to boot Linux could change at any time at Microsoft's discretion with no option to correct it

(Especially with UEFI)

How many here think that Internet updates with UEFI before you even get to Windows are a good idea when the end user has no control over the decision to update?

You're gonna need a better firewall

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dgrmouse

Very scary notions, and good food for thought.

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KenLV

Crybabies. "Me, me, me."

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MarioJP

From what i see everyday. Everything is regulated for standards. Mac OS and Windows seems to be the only 2 OS'es that is meant for everyone. The notion of "buying a blank computer" is just unrealistic. Your average Joe just want a computer that is ready for him/her out of the box period. We geeks are a fraction of the overall market that these corporation caters to.

Can you buy a car and choose a engine of your liking? No
Can you buy a smartphone and choose a OS of your liking? No.
Apple has demonstrated that all consumers really care about is the user experience and less about tick tock.

You can't blame corporation for not making you happy about a product. You can blame the consumers that have voted with their bank accounts that's keeping these corporation in business making you unhappy. Kind of like how George W. Bush got elected twice lmao lol.

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ForwardObserver

This is ridiculous. You don't see BMW being forced to sell their cars with a Mercedes engine. I wonder why Apple doesn't face these same complaints/lawsuits? Their products are locked down and WAY more proprietary than Microsoft's.

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Renegade Knight

Actually consider. If computers were cars. BMW, Mercedes etc would sell you the body and Microsoft, Linux, Unix etc. would be the motor. Unlike cars the computer maker isn't the OS maker. Except in the case of Apple and even then you can run another OS on the Apple.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Apple Hardware is made for Apple Software so nobody cares

But, when generic PC's are locked into any specific O.S., you are definitely gonna hear about it

The only business Microsoft has in locking down hardware is "THEIR" hardware, namely surface and xbox

If Microsoft can't sell more than 3 or 4 tablets a month, then what business do they have destroying everyone else's business?

OK, I may be exaggerating slightly but you get the point if you still have 3 or 4 brain cells left

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H1N1theI

Does ISPes have to use the same IEEE standards?

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ForwardObserver

Most IEEE standards are not laws, nor are they enforceable by law.

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jth

I'm all for complaining about something you don't like but regulation like this is wrong. If people want machines that will easily boot different OSs then people will make them, and they do. Don't give Microsoft money to support things like this and if enough people agree with you then they will change if they want to stay in business. Stop bringing up lawsuits because not enough people agree with you to actually make a difference.

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Hey.That_Dude

UNFORTUNATLY, that's not the world we live in. We already have regulations that say that computer must be sold with an operating system. Add to that, it's easier (and better) to amend that regulation rather than to remove it.
I truly, honestly, desperately, want to be able to just walk into a store (virtual or otherwise) and buy a blank computer, load my favorite OS (be it Windows, OSX, Linux, or UNIX), and have it work without significant tweaking. That's just not the way it is. I really hope it gets that way one day. But, for right now, getting secure boot removed (or just default turned off) would be a great step.

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xRadeon

My first thoughts are why are Linux people complaining? Just hack your way around it, duh.
Second thought is, just don't buy that hardware!

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Formedras

First: It prevents Linux enthusiasts from effectively convincing others, even those tired of both Windows and OS X, to install Linux. It's hard enough as it was before, and this is one more hurdle that needs to not be there. (That said, since turning it off is as simple as flipping a BIOS switch...)
Second: Even Linux guys can prefer to buy pre-built computers, including from retail stores whose PCs are exclusively Windows-based. Being that it's almost impossible to buy a Linux box in a retail store, it becomes a $300 Windows pre-built vs $275 + 8 hour setup Linux BYO. (Is 8 hours really worth saving $25?) If Linux was an actual competitor in the retail market, this could be partially moot. But it's not.

Finally: Every "market forces"-based argument against Microsoft and Windows pretty much centers around the fact that they STILL benefit an excessively gross amount from their anticompetitive and illegal acts, while continuing their campaigns to not just increase profits, but eliminate competition by locking its customers out of having a choice.

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TrollBot5000

+1

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Dexter243

I have win 8 on my laptop got 2 copies when it was $40 and the free win media key
and even at that price i feal it was overpriced i took it back off gaming system and went back to win7 and duelbooting with Ubuntu and gave other copy of win 8 away
Ubuntu is a nice os and will do any thing windows can do other then a few games
and that is changing now with Steam on Ubuntu now and more and more games now porting there games to mac and linux
And i can see why windows is scared and trying to use it muscles to hang on to its power because last is seen windows is loosing it ass in phone market loosing it ass in tablet market and is loosing it grip on even the dwindling pc market with allot homes no longer even use a pc were a tablet with LINUX on it will do any on line stuff they do
sory Microsoft but after 30+ years of using microsoft softwere i no longer need you and many others are no longer needing your software nether
it will not be any problem for me to drop all use of windows at any time and only use on gaming rig other systems are ubuntu or. Mac

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Microsoft's reason for such a technology is to prevent less secure operating systems from running!

Less secure for WHO?

This tech prevents end users from running operating systems that are "MORE SECURE" than Windows 8

It also requires an extortion payment of $50 to Microsoft for a new key to run other systems

I have already proven in previous posts that Windows XP-SP2 without ANY Microsoft Security updates cannot get a virus or malware including Gov't sponsored spyware/malware (Flame) by simply using Driveshield with a few additional tweaks (Admin account, aftermarket firewall, password protected BIOS, etc)

I have NEVER had a problem with such a system and am still looking for malware that can disable my antivirus or firewall on such a system or add any type of malware or virus

The backdoors in Windows 7 and 8 cannot be closed by the end users and it is not the end user's security that Microsoft is protecting

Any Microsoft O.S. made in the past 10 years is a Government sponsored Spyware Platform

If you really want to stop the Terrorists, then ban ALL Microsoft products from the Internet

Stopping the Criminals is NOT a crime!

When the Criminals who write the laws to protect only themselves tell me otherwise, I just make my own laws!

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AFDozerman

Wouldn't setting up your windows8 machine behind a BSD/Linux based firewall separate from your main machine solve your problems?

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Find a Free and simple solution that a grandmother could love or it will never happen

Wouldn't plugging all the security holes by default be a better solution?

Not if Microsoft has anything to say about it!

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Exarkun1138

Just curious, but do you have actual PROOF of the claims you post on here? I mean, not just STATING what you claim, but proving it with actual documents, links, articles, etc.? I'm not saying you're wrong, or right for that matter, just that I am one who needs proof of someone's claims before I take them seriously.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Yes I do!

Read all my posts on the topic and test it for yourself

Links and articles on the topic are usually pulled down very quickly so you MUST do your own research

For example;
On an XP machine, Microsoft Security Essentials can update itself even though it is blocked from Internet access in your firewall
(Both incoming and Outgoing data blocked in aftermarket firewalls)

This is easily tested on an XP machine but backdoors like this are hard to find in Windows 7 and 8 due to the way it works

Microsoft allows about a gazillion components to access the Internet by default in Windows 7 and 8 and only provides security patches "After" the damage is done (Not before)

Please test it with an open mind instead of listening to the "Experts"

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Exarkun1138

I am open minded, but I still see no proof here. How convenient it is of of you to say that articles and links are usually "taken down very quickly" to cover your statements. I find that rather strange considering I can find articles and links about almost anything on the web, and those articles pertain to subjects far more illicit than Microsoft's Windows OS and it's supposed ties with the Government Malware Producers.

I don't have any XP machines I can "test" your claims on because, quite frankly, XP sucks IMHO. I used Windows 7 for almost 3 years now, and am now running with Windows 8, and you know what, I have never had a Malware/Virus/Spam attack the entire time I was on Windows 7.....I haven't had Windows 8 running long enough to make that determination, yet, but so far, no issues what-so-ever.

Not to be insulting here, but you sound more like someone who hates anything about Microsoft, and are simply playing the crowd with your comments. Until you can provide proof, actual legitimate proof, I will take your comments with a grain of salt.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

How convenient it is for you to ask for proof that you will never accept anyway unless you do your own research

I've heard your argument a thousand times on this site

Everyone here wants proof but they won't accept it when they get it and refuse to do the research themselves

Believe what you want

You will anyway

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Exarkun1138

So, simply based on YOUR comments, I'm supposed to believe you? I have one question: Why should I believe you, when I don't see proof that what you say is true or not?

If I blatantly told you something or posted comments on here that I did not supply proof of, do you honestly think people should believe me simply because I say they are true comments? Come on now. Understand, I am not saying that you are wrong....I already mentioned that before. I just need more than some comment on a web site without proof before I believe what I read.

Also, How have you "heard my argument a thousand times on this site" when this is the first time I have ever responded to your comments on any topic on this site?

I work in IT so I am not some neewbie when it comes to All Things Microsoft. I also know Microsoft is no angel when it comes to doing "underhanded" tactics. But, before I take your word on something, I simply need proof. That's all I ask.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

You have the proof
I showed you how to verify it
You claim you cannot because you don't have XP

That's not my problem

I've heard your arguments a thousand time by "Others" on this site

So, How can I prove anything to you that you refuse to verify?

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Exarkun1138

Let me put it to you this way: You say for me to try these "claims" of yours on an XP machine to prove your claims. I ask you this, show me documentation stating that what you are claiming is the truth. Show me others who have done this and posted blogs or articles about it to prove what you say is real. Since I don't have an XP machine readily available to "test" your claims, the burden of proof is on you, the claimer, to prove your point.

It's a simple request. Send a link. A Blog. An article. ANYTHING that backs up your claim of what you have posted.

And you didn't say "others" before. Thank you for clarifying that.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Lets try the same argument on YOU!

Find me a link or document anywhere on the Internet where anyone else has even tried to verify what I have done

If everyone just wants to dictate what the truth is without verifying anything, how the hell can I possibly find you a link?

Under those conditions, this is all the verification you will ever get

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Exarkun1138

Then you have proven one thing: You cannot prove your claims, and will not even try. At this point, I really don't care if you do.

Make your claims all you want. Until you can back up those claims with proof, don't be surprised if people think you are just spouting off about Microsoft.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Obviously there is no evidence you can accept and you want others to believe you but not someone who did the research

You sound like a perp who (even if they did the research) would deny the evidence to prove their point

You are a Shill even if you don't know it yet

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Exarkun1138

Ah, now I see what you are. You start name calling when someone calls you out on your lack of proof. Thanks so much for providing that bit of salacious input.

Have a nice day!

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Bullwinkle J Moose

Namecalling?
Me?

It was "YOUR" comments that make you a shill

You did it to yourself

I have shown you how to verify my claims, and THAT is the proof that you claim to seek

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Exarkun1138

This is the key to your comments:

"I have shown you how to verify my claims, and THAT is the proof that you claim to seek"

That is YOUR comment, and you said to "verify MY claims". These are YOUR CLAIMS, not documented facts. Since YOU are making these claims, then YOU must prove them. Making ME have to do work to prove something YOU claim, that is not proof.

Thanks for trying, but you have failed once again.

Have a nice day! :-)

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Bullwinkle J Moose

These claims are documented right here and right now!

You may verify them at your leisure....

Or not

it's impossible to prove to an idiot that he is an idiot...
He just doesn't get what he just doesn't get

LOL

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Exarkun1138

They are documented BY YOU, but not by others. I can say I have the cure for cancer, and make all the wild "claims" on here I wish, but that doesn't prove it.

Also, you can try and make a "funny" with your sly little remark in your last sentence, but that doesn't work either. You still haven't provided proof, won't provide proof, and that means you can't provide proof.

So please, go ahead, continue to spout your rhetoric. Makes me no difference now. I asked a simple question, and made a simple request. The fact you couldn't, or wouldn't, provide that proof makes you look like a little child who cried wolf.

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jgottberg

Sorry to add a splash of reality to the conversation here but... Did it ever occur to you that maybe... just maybe... Microsoft designed Security Essentials to find open TCP ports to update itself in the event that malware had hijacked the ports it usually uses? Nah... that's way too rational.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

No malware here....and completely irrelevant

The simple fact that you can Block ALL incoming and outgoing traffic in your firewall, yet Security Essentials still maintains an open port is all the evidence you should need that there is another security problem created by another Microsoft product

If your solution is so simple, please show all the 1st time computer users how to block ALL Microsoft components from accessing the Internet in ALL VERSIONS of Windows without affecting their normal surfing habbits in Firefox or the browser of their choice

The fact that they make it so hard for newbs to secure their own computers is the problem

If you find a simple to understand solution to the problem, please post a link

Unless there is a simple fix, there is still a problem!

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jgottberg

Hate to break it to you, Moose but the fact that you are on the internet at all has opened your doors. If it's not Microsoft, it's someone else.

I'll give you something to try: Open a command prompt with elevated privledges and run "netstat -b" It will display all of your TCP connections, the port(s) they are using and the executable that is using the port(s). Careful - it may scare you.

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Neufeldt2002

.

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jgottberg

Exactly my point. You DO have at least one TCP connection to the outside. Moose claims his is void of any entries which like I said, is impossible if you have an active network connection.

I know Moose is paranoid and thats cool, that's his gig but spreading false information like that is reckless and well, just not smart.

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Exarkun1138

Being paranoid, and Moose is, is fine. But when someone makes claims as he does, but cannot provide proof, then I smell a rat and I tend to take what they say with a grain of salt.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

OK, tried it without Security Essentials and everything blocked in the Firewall

I got one line for active connections and here it is>

Proto Local Address - Foreign Address - State - PID
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you got any more than that, maybe you have too many Microsoft Products Installed

You're knowledge is scary!
Anything else you'd like me to try?

Maybe instead of trying to show me and everyone else how insecure they are, you could show us a simple solution to the problems Microsoft creates?

After all, Flame and Stuxnet are not the only Government sponsored pieces of malware out there destroying hardware and data

A solution is a matter of National Security!

Get on it

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jgottberg

I call BS - if that's the only line you have, you aren't even connected to the internet. I'd have a lot of things for you to try but unfortunately, I'd get the same BS response.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

I AM connected to the Internet right now and I get several lines when STEAM and Firefox are allowed through

There is NOTHING connecting to the Internet when they are blocked!

No matter what I do, any lines I get are local when everything is blocked

Unless I install Security Essentials

THEN there is a problem

You Sir, are full of Crap

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jgottberg

Ok, so what you are saying is you DO in fact have open connection to that dangerous world out there right? That's all I needed you to admit.

ANY software with an open connection has the ability to covertly transfer data/personal information.

I'm the one full of crap? G37 0v3r y00rs31f.

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Bullwinkle J Moose

there is no connection to the big dangerous World that I can find unless Security Essentials is installed

I think you have confused LOCAL attempts with Internet connections

Try again

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Granite

These LINUX guys need to quit their whining, put on their big boy pants, get over themselves and move on.

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vgrig

LOL - why don't you put on your "big boy pants" and run a real operating system? Oh, i forgot - UEFI Secure Boot is preventing you. :-(

Now, UEFI is not much of the problem for geeks like us - however regular PC user never boot into BIOS, ever. That's the problem - Linux distros spend years making installing it (even in dual boot mode) as painless as possible for a newbie, then comes MS and using it monopoly power forces OEM to enable Secure Boot - or you won't get that cute logo on the case consumers love so much!

Sure as hell it's a case for Anti-trust commission - it's pretty much the same as Netscape case: "But you can always download and install Netscape!" didn't fly even in US. Or WMP case, or LAN protocols case, or..., etc., etc.

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Granite

I thought all LINUX users were geeks. If so, they shouldn't have any problems. (and from what I've read, UEFI isn't that much of a problem)

Seems to me a bunch of little boys decided to try to extort some money out of the big boys.

Let's face it...LINUX will never be able to play with the big boys so they should go back to their own sandbox and leave the big boys alone instead of crying to Mommy.

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Renegade Knight

UEFI isn't a problem provided you can turn it off in the BIOS. That's not always an option and it's not always disclosed in the specs when you are looking at a PC/Tablet to buy.

Linux users do tend to know a little more than most about computers (not to mention we are better educated and damn good looking) but hacking a bios is beyond my skill level.

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vgrig

Yeah - let's go back to our sandbox, along with google, amazon, facebook, microsoft - say what? Microsoft!? Well, guess what runs Skype? :-P
Big boys indeed...

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