Sophos Disses Norton and McAfee, Praises Windows 8's Built-in Antivirus
Sophos Disses Norton and McAfee, Praises Windows 8's Built-in Antivirus
Posted 09/16/2011 at 7:54am
| by Paul Lilly
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Perhaps you've heard that Windows 8 will ship with built-in antivirus software. Don't fret if you're just now learning this, Microsoft did a great job bombarding the media with information about its next major OS at its BUILD conference, and retaining it all on first pass is asking a lot. Nevertheless, this is a big announcement, and one that can't be sitting well with third-party AV vendors. Security firm Sophos has a message for them: "Too bad, sucka!"
Here's what's happening with Windows 8. From the sound of things, Microsoft is injecting a bunch of new protection mechanisms into its Windows Defender program, mechanisms previously found in Microsoft's free Security Essentials program. In order to use Security Essentials, you have to point your browser to the appropriate website, download the program, and install it. Windows Defender, on the other hand, comes pre-bundled with Windows 7 and will also ship with Windows 8.
Sophos says that's good news for consumers and bad news for security vendors, but hey, the latter had their shot and they blew it.
"It's questionable as to whether many home users will want to reach into their pockets and pay for security from them if there's already one built into Windows 8," Sophos explains in a blog post. "Frankly, it's their own fault. The two big security hippopotamuses have had years of opportunity to gobble up the end-user market, and yet still millions of home users were infected by malware, spyware, and pop-ups each year."
It's pretty funny to see Sophos refer to Norton and McAfee as "security hippopotamuses" (and make no mistake, those are the companies Sophos is talking about, as evidenced not only by the obvious, by also by a quoted Twitter message earlier in the company's blog post), but it's no laughing matter for third-party security vendors.
"Microsoft's plans for Windows 8 might mean knee jerk reactions from some vendors, and even perhaps price cuts and giveaways in an already aggressive market," Sophos says.
Alternately, Sophos says security vendors could go the legal route and sue Microsoft for anti-competitive practices, a tactic that was successful in the European Union over Microsoft's bundling of Internet Explorer in Windows.
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toponsmar
September 22, 2011 at 1:42am
Microsoft's built-in antivirus software can cause complaints from other vendors.
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Malefactor
September 16, 2011 at 2:11pm
I think the media is blowing this out of proportion. This will give everyone using Windows 8 a better baseline to start from, but they're not including the entire MSSE program in the OS, because they don't want to get an anti-trust suit. Just some of the features.
If you want comprehensive protection against malware and other online threats, you'll still need to install an AV product. It's not going to be a replacement for AV products, it's just going to make the native OS a bit more safe and secure.
jtrpop
September 16, 2011 at 1:55pm
Bravo Microsoft and Sophos! Microsoft has every right to secure their operating system, and Sophos was correct by stating that no 3rd party has cornered the market because home users (even with their anti-virus software) are still infected.
Malefactor
September 16, 2011 at 2:19pm
I don't know, isn't that like saying that alarm system vendors are no longer relevant because homes still get broken into?
You have to consider that this isn't as straightforward as "Malware appeared mid-decade in the 90's and we've been fighting that same malware ever since." The cyber-criminals are constantly coming up with new innovative ways to target users. It's like a cat and mouse game, as soon as one threat is mitigated, the criminals have come up with a new angle, which must then be secured, and so the cycle continues indefintely.
There will never be such a thing as complete security. Security is not a goal, there is no point where the AV vendors can just stop and say "Well, our job is done, the Internet and all computers are secure now." Security is a constant effort to stay ahead of, and keep up with, the threats, there will be no end until there are no computers and no Internet.
It makes no sense to say "AV vendors have failed because malware still exists and some computers still get infected." Sophos should understand that security is not a goal, as I outlined above, if they are looking at it as something they can one day walk away from successfully, then they are looking at security the wrong way.
Danthrax66
September 16, 2011 at 1:50pm
Too bad windows 8 is garbage. dev.windows.com if anyone wants to try it but I warn you it is annoying and designed for tablets.
leper1983
September 16, 2011 at 3:56pm
You know you can disable the Tablet Feature which makes Win8 act like Win7
Danthrax66
September 16, 2011 at 11:33pm
I'm still trying to get it to connect to the network after I install my drivers, and find the shutdown button without logging off... Still it shouldn't default to being a useless piece of shit tablet OS.
AnglicDemon00
September 16, 2011 at 1:31pm
My question is how well it work, even though MSE works great, there are something it sometimes misses, just like every other AV. I have ran an Avast boot scan and it caught things that MSE did not stop.
luusyphre
September 16, 2011 at 1:40pm
Yeah, but does that really mean that it was something malicious. I have MSE on my home PC and Symantec on my work laptop, and I can't use GOM Player on my work laptop anymore because Symantec doesn't like it (and I got in trouble for installing potentially dangerous software).
allantang
September 16, 2011 at 1:19pm
Well we have sophos at work as antivirus protection. Let me say its just as bad as all the other big players out there...
Are they not also laughing at themselves?
Hg Dragon
September 16, 2011 at 11:35am
Just as long as Win8 will still allow for installation of 3rd-party AV apps, this is a non-issue really. And until MS releases some kind of management kit that will allow someone to administer/configure MSE from a single point down to the individual endpoint, reporting, updating and the various other tasks that are part of what I do as my company's AV administrator (which, as far as I know, they don't have), then 3rd parties will still have a presence in the business world at least.
someone87
September 16, 2011 at 1:17pm
MSE for business is called forfont endpoint protection, or something like that. If you pay for that you have all those deployment options and such that your asking about.
Engelsstaub
September 16, 2011 at 11:00am
I don't always sing very loud praises for Microsoft, but the fact that they seem to be making Windows security their responsibility is outstanding. They should be highly commended and I hope Windows users make their appreciation known for further encouragement.
OliverSudden
September 16, 2011 at 9:35am
Emsisoft Antimalware alerts me about things never once picked up by Norton or MSE (which I have running concurrently with Emsisoft). I'm quite pleased with it.
strykyr
September 16, 2011 at 9:37am
I have used MSE since day one and like it. Norton is crap. It installs things u don't need or don't work. And when u uninstall it, u really don't. Mcafee. Same thing. AVG is good if u have a decent sytem. But, unfurtunately, you can't buy a decent system at walmart. AVG is a resource hog. I also have MBAM installed. Lately tho, I've been getting a bunch of false positives from Risk II and a version of Scrabble that came in a box of cereal a few years ago. Both retail copies. Annoying more than anything else.
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Microsoft Security Essentials and MBAM
Firefinder6
September 16, 2011 at 11:48pm
Have to agree with strykyr on this one...I even get Norton free thanks to a corporate home use plan, but I got so sick of the problems of (sort of) unistalling (using their "special" script), (sort of) reinstalling and crashing whenever they did an upgrade that I went over to MSE almost as soon as they released it. I've got it running on 4 of the 5 computers on my home network without a problem, and the fifth will get it as soon as I do a clean install to dump the old Norton. It's even recognized by the solution I have running on the home server, unlike Norton and MacRappy. Now if they would just release a version for home server...
Malefactor
September 16, 2011 at 1:53pm
You may want to test out AVG 2012's final release before you go around saying it's a resource hog, otherwise people are going to start giving you funny looks. ;)
AVG 2011 was a bit heavier than previous versions, but in the AVG 2012 development process, their primary goal wasn't to add new features, it was to optimize the code and load fewer processes while offering even better protection. They re-built their product with the specific focus on making it faster and lighter, and I can certainly tell the difference on my low-end netbook! http://www.avg.com/us-en/press-releases-news.ndi-1835
Judging from this attitude, I would say we can expect further improvement and optimization from their future products as well. :)
HiGHRoLLeR038
September 16, 2011 at 9:19am
Yea ive seen Norton, Mcafee, and Avast all confidentially report that a computer is 'secure' while mbam and sas are picking up trojens, hijackers, and other malicious shit right before their eyes. its just sad.
QuadraQ
September 16, 2011 at 10:35am
Very true. Most of these companies just don't do a good job. I've been using and recommending MS Security Essentials for a while now, because it protects as well as or better than any third party packages, while staying out of your way. And the fact that it's free is also great. Good job Microsoft!
noobstix
September 16, 2011 at 8:46am
My dad used Norton once and despised it and I had used McAfee and despised that as well. Both were much like hippos, very bloated and pretty useless. Unless those two companies can make an AV that doesn't add an hour to boot time as well as scan for 24 hours and not find anything, I think MS still has the advantage in including a decent free alternative. I've personally used MSE ever since it came out and combining that with smarter web-browsing, I've only had one major thing happen to my computer (which I don't feel like going into detail about).
someuid
September 16, 2011 at 8:18am
Microsoft will probably leave some features open that will let security vendors plug in holes.
It is funny to hear McAfee and Norton called hippos. And Sophos is right. Those two companies have had plenty of time to write compact code that defends users computers, but have failed. Too bugy, too bloated, too many parts and pieces, hard to configure (if I don't want a daily scan let me turn it off without receiving a gazillion warnings that my security is less than ideal), too much push to get The Big Package. Just release one product at one price with cheaper yearly updates. Not everyone earns six figures and regards $50-$75 as chump change (I'm talking at you, Mr. Business Manager, who's prices are driven not by cost or value but by fanciful next quarter income projections).
someone87
September 16, 2011 at 8:15am
And this just goes to show, the Government should get out of private business, and let the free market decide.
This story is basically saying;
"It's a good think MS is stepping up and offering free virus protection to end users, out of the box"
And yet, (at least over the pond) competition to MS (hippopotamuses) through the courts (government) may be able to sue, and forcibly kill competition. They can continue to offer their crap for 40$ a pop, and not do anything to improve their product. How does that help us as end users? More specifically my grandma?If the government would just let the free market decide, then those who are un-happy, or wish for greater (joke) protection, can un-install the Win 8 protection, (or never install it in the first place) and go to a third party solution.
someuid
September 16, 2011 at 8:41am
If the government got out of the process entirely, MS would tell their default antivirus protection to block the user from (1) disabling it and (2) installing any other antivirus product. Then MS would decide that offering daily updates is too costly and move to a weekly or monrhly release cycle. It would be a disaster.
I'm as much of a free market person as you, but the problem is large companies like Microsoft actively work to short circuit any protections a free market would offer. This is why we can't rely fully on free market principles to correct these issues. Large corporations attack the free market itself because they feel it is in their best interest to do so (increase revenue and decrease costs). We need something bigger, like government, to intervene now and then to right the ship.
Pure capitalism does not exist. No company wants it. Pure capitalism enforces efficiency both in terms of costs and revenue. No company wants that. The want efficiency in regards to costs, but largess when it comes to revenue.
someone87
September 16, 2011 at 9:49am
I half agree with you.
Anyone can write programs (in code that windows supports) and run them on windows. If MS specifically didn’t allow a certain vendor or program to run on their OS, then that's a reason to sue over. Because it's a honestly/contract/business agreement issue.
Besides, WSE has been free for quite some time already, and if MS detects that you don't have a AV installed, it will download WSE for you though windows updates.
The government is always needed to keep law and order. To punish when a company lies/steals or cheats its customers, and to make sure contracts are honored, etc. But the government should never, regulate industry, tell private companies what to do (again, outside of forcing them to uphold contracts, etc.), what to make, where to sell etc.
Think about this, if Ford came out with a car, that collected oil from the air, and you never needed to re-fuel, would you be in favor of Mobil suing Ford, forcing them to not make/sell that car? Ford just cut Mobil out of the market, now everyone who buys a Ford no longer has to visit gas stations.
ms_pacman777
September 16, 2011 at 8:08am
Their defender program sucks. I will not be using their antivirus or internet security. I haven't had any problems with using AVG on any of my computers. I will stick with what I have already. It works, and I haven't received any viruses.
HiGHRoLLeR038
September 16, 2011 at 9:20am
I work on campus fixing student laptops and i can say that defender has saved my ass a few times. its nice to have when it does something useful.
Ashton2091
September 16, 2011 at 8:30am
I don't know how many times I've had to remove tons of virus's or reinstall windows, due to my customers either not having any antivirus, having a antivirus program that the virus itself installed, or having a legit antivirus that is just simply inefective. You'd be suprised at how many people are not sure what antivirus programs to choose or those that don't know how to choose it anyways, so they go without it. I'm not saying Windows Security Essentials is super great by any means. I am saying that Security Essentials does a darn good job. My customers love it. I personally don't use it, but that doesn't make me biased against it.
So in a nutshell, I'm glad that there is some Out of the Box protection provided. And adding more of the Security Essentials features to Defender is a good thing. Lastly, folks like you and I can choose to disable it and go with what we want. But for the folks who are not sure or don't know...its great for them.
FYI not challenging you...just giving a diff point of view. Also, I too love AVG. Although when I uninstall it, it now leaves peices behind (which it never did), and I hate that. None the less...I've trusted AVG for many years now :-)
Malefactor
September 16, 2011 at 1:42pm
Actually, AVG's probably done that for years, as has every single AV solution on the market. Those programs are very deeply integrated into your system, and using the built in Add or Remove Programs applet in the control panel will not remove all traces of them.
That's why, for the rare occasion AVG needs to be removed from a computer, you should use the AVG Removal Tool. It will remove all traces of AVG from your system, it's a much more thorough, custom clean-up. http://www.avg.com/us-en/utilities
It's the first two downloads from the top to the bottom. Which one you should use depends on if you're running a 32bit or 64bit OS.
Ashton2091
September 16, 2011 at 2:50pm
Excellent. Thanks. I will def download the tools. But when I removed AVG in the past, it was a farly clean uninstall that CCleaner would remove the rest of. I know most programs leave traces, but AVG remains in my msconfig as a startup program (which i unchecked) and on my desktop as a shortcut and even has the tray icon. I'm pretty good at removing left overs but this is quite rediculous. I will be honest and admit that I do like the older versions of AVG (before the GUI got so slick). Anywho, no big deal. Will just use the tools. Thanks for the tip :-)
Malefactor
September 16, 2011 at 6:09pm
You're welcome man, glad I could help!
By the way, you checked out AVG 2012 yet? Final release was the first of this month. They optimized the code and are using fewer processes now, it's running really well on my netbook. I know a lot of people prefer the older versions because they tended to be lighter, back in the days when you didn't need so many features to keep the malware at bay. I think they're making a real effort to get back to efficiency without dropping the protection, will be interesting to see just how well they can do this. I'm pretty satisfied with what I'm seeing so far.
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