Judge Dismisses Sony "Other OS" PS3 Class Action

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Backtrace

I wondered if this would have turned out differently if Microsoft turning off your internet access if it found any non-Microsoft products on your computer. And I just love the circular logic these other people say, "You could refuse to accept the update or just update and lose functionality". That's like saying "Either take this cyanide pill or I'm gonna shoot you in the head." Also, when you go buy a game for your computer, it has what operating system it runs on. With a PS3, it looks like it will run on it, but if you don't have the current system update, then you have just wasted money buying a game that can't be played. It should at least have the minimal system update needed to be played with on the packaging.

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LatiosXT

1. If you really want your feature, don't ever update.

2. If you really want your feature after you've updated, go find some mods and hacks.

Silly people. These are proprietary companies. If you want all the features they offer, you have to bend over backwards and take it. Otherwise, if you want your features and services to exist, then you have to go your own way.

The fact remains, there was that EULA for usage of the software in the system. That usage included Sony had the capability of doing whatever it wants to that software without notice. If Sony someday decides hardcore porn should come up on boot, then hey, Sony can do that. If you want hardcore porn to come up on boot, well, you should do that.

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Wingzero_x

Fact is from day 1 the EULA clearly stated that features could be added or removed as Sony wished, this is very similar to EULAs found in other products like Windows, BluRay players, etc. Even though it was pointless Sony did give people the option not to apply the upgrade that removed that feature, even by doing so basically negated the PS3 from playing anymore games, watching any curent movies, or even accessing the Playstation store. However let's be realistic here NOBODY bought their PS3 to run Linux!

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bling581

I think you're missing the point. When you walk into a store and buy something do they have EULA available before you read it? Definately not in the store, and it may not be available online either. So you walk out of the store with your item that you paid for, go home and hook it up, and then find out that said company removed several features they used as advertising points on the box and you can't use the item unless you agree to the EULA?

I'm sorry but even though a EULA may hold up as legal in court the basic idea of them is almost criminal in my opinion. Companies are even adding "no class-action lawsuit" sections to their user agreements. A EULA is a loophole for companies to do whatever they want whenever they want and unless you agree to it the item you paid for is junk. Sure, some products like the PS3 have cracks or mods that you could try, but you can't say the same thing for other products.

If the change something you don't like within the time limit of your return policy you can probably return it. Anytime after that you either agree or decline and look at your nice pile of wasted money. Software isn't able to be returned the day you purchased it because you don't get to read the EULA until after you've opened it and started the install process. Pretty convenient for them.

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Wingzero_x

Nope, the EULA is the point and you missed the point where Sony basically said it's our pool and we will do what is our best interest. Also it doesn't matter that they change something you don't like later the fact is from day 1 Sony said they reserved the right to do so, and these people agreed to those terms! If they didn't want Sony to make changes then they should have returned the item when they first opened it.

Also note that not only is the EULA accessible thru the XMB, but a print version is included as well. Also the box also included a disclaimer that basically says; Here is some pretty pictures what is inside may be different.

 

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bling581

Did you read my post? You aren't required to agree to any terms until after you've purchased something and opened it. At that point you can return it if able, but things like software are non-refundable when opened. It's also not right that they can change their agreements at anytime and you either agree or your product is bricked.

It's not about the legallity of the agreement, it's about how companies go about making you agree to it or pour your cash down the drain. They're only doing it because they have a way to access your device via the internet. Virtually anything else that doesn't get hooked up to the web is yours, but anything that is isn't? Companies think that because they can access the device via the internet that it's still theirs and not yours.

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Wingzero_x

 

Really what's not to understand?!

"11. MAINTENANCE AND UPGRADES

From time to time, we may want to provide you with new Services to ensure that Sony Online Network or your PS3™, Portable Device or other Sony Systems are functioning properly in accordance with our guidelines. Any such Services may be downloaded automatically and without further notice when you sign into Sony Online Network, and may include automatic updates or upgrades which may change your current operating system and could cause loss of data or content, or loss of function or utility. Such upgrades or updates may be provided for system software for your PS3™, Portable Device or other Sony System. Access to or use of any system software is subject to terms and conditions of a separate end user licence agreement. Data and content may also be lost during maintenance or repair of your equipment. You must archive your personal photo, music and video content regularly to prevent such loss of data. You hereby authorise us to provide such Services and agree that, to the extent permitted by applicable law, we are not liable for any loss of data, content, function or utility.

 

In addition, you may be able to set your PS3™ or other Sony System to download new Services from Sony Online Network automatically without further notice to you when you sign into Sony Online Network. These Conditions shall apply to any such content."

Now suck it up! 

 

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genghiskhen

Legal doesn't make it right. EULAs are the biggest crock, and removing features from products after purchase is theft. Did everyone forget about the Sony rootkit? Sony is evil.

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Wingzero_x

No legal does make it right, if you don't agree go somewhere else. It's only theft if they do so without permission, when these people agreed to EULA that gave Sony that permission.

As far as the Sony Rootkit, was it a fiasco? Yes. Was it as terrible as some editors and conspiracy theorist would have you believe? Not even close.

Sony is just a corporation, not good, not evil. 

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Carlidan

I have to disagree with you that legal does make it right. Let say for instant,  it was legal to shoot to unarmed person just because he was walking on your side walk. Legally you can shoot him, but does it make it right?

 

Well that's just my two cents  about this.

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Eoraptor

Exactly. If EULA's were any other form of law, they'd have been struck down years ago. We seem to think that digital data is somehow different from any other form of product in existence, and that people creating digital data are immune from common sense. Nowhere else in commerce except in digital data (including cellphone contracts), except perhaps banking, can you just create a wall of text that basically says "I can do anything I want, at any time, anywhere, and for any reason or even no reason at all, and even break my own rules retroactivly, and there's nothing you can do about it neener neener neener"

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limitbreaker

I understand the principle of it and i think that it's a dick move by sony that gets down to Apple's level but seriously.... running linux on the ps3 was terrible, the 256MB system ram was too low to even run a web browser smoothly with more than one window and there was no access to the GPU so the ps3 could barely even run super nintendo emulators. The only practical thing i could find to use linux with on the ps3 was to dump blueray files on the hard drive and use it to rip my movies. in all honesty, are the people who are fighting so hard to get linux really need it for any reason outside of jailbreaking the PS3? if so then they should go find a old laptop from the late 90's and use that instead.

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Eoraptor

I'm sure there is some malfesence behind some of the people who want the otherOS feature back. However, it is also the principal of the thing. people paid a lot of money for these devices, and while they may not be the fastest thing out there now... when they were released they certainly were, and OtherOS was a cornerstone of that, and a reason more than a few people bought PS3 consoles, along with the blueray drives.

The idea is to stop companies from just bending customers over a barrel any time they want to and hiding behind a eula which they can change at the drop of a hat, confident int he knowledge that no one out there will be able to understand or even read it.. sadly, that seems to have failed here.

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Wingzero_x

 

Anybody that bought a PS3 just to run Linux needs to have their head examined! Especially when you could walk into any thrift store and spend $20 on a PC that would've ran far better distros than Yellow Dog! 

 

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kixofmyg0t

I had Yellow Dog 6 on my PS3 back in the day. Yeah I could technically call it "Linux" but it wasn't all that. You couldn't do shit besides rip Blu-Ray movies and..........

wait for it.......

 

WAIT FOR IT.......

 

GAMES!

 

OHHHHH NOOOOW we see the REAL reason why people are up in arms about the whole deal. Sony took away the ability to rip PS3 games from the system. Kinda hard to download PS3 games with bandwidth caps huh kids?

Sony closed a door that was used as the end result of copying PS3 games. OtherOS was a security risk in the first place and never should have been there to begin with.

 

Btw why does NOONE bitch about Sony removing the card reader? Or 2 USB ports? Or backwards compatibilty? Cuz you don't use those for pirating games that's why.

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Eoraptor

No, plenty of people bitched about ALL of those things. The difference largely was that the first two were hardware changes (analogous to the manufacturer changing theengine package of your car from year to year), and there wasn't a lot anyone could do about it; and the third one, well, BC was largely a myth, even when the thing supposedly had it to start with. The other OS feature was something that existed and worked from day one, which was then removed from existing consoles. And it was something somneone could LEGALLY try to do something about.

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kixofmyg0t

Backwards compatability was a myth?!?!?!

 

Holy fuck you have no idea what ur talking about LOL!!!

 

Your entire argument is invailid now. You may wanna read up the Wiki's on PS3 before you go blab about shit you don't know.

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iceman08

How was BC a myth? My launch 80GB had the software emulator for it. only time it became a myth was the second iteration of the 80GB had BC, but it got removed during a firmware update

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Trekker1091

Of course, yet again a major company gets away with screwing its customers over.  People PAID for the feature you took away.  I'm glad some people decided to take it to court.  I am appalled, however, the the court simply chose to ignore customer complaints.  Sorry judge, but I hope this case gets filed again somewhere higher, and then that higher court takes it up and soupenas you wanting to know why you didnt even look at the case before you went and dismissed it.  God, I hate our justice system.

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kixofmyg0t

No people PAID for the hardware. They PAID for a video game console. They don't PAY for the firmware that runs it. Sony added features to the PS3 and nobody bitches about that.

 

In the end if you wanted OtherOS so god damn bad then you should have kept the firmware that allowed you to use it. Sony NEVER FORCED YOU to update.

 

You AGREED to use Sony software under their terms. READ THE EULA IDIOT.

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Eoraptor

Incorrect on both counts. the firmware is just that, a component of hardware level programming resident to the device, no different than the bios. it lays below the playstation operating system. if sony took out the bios, would you still say they had a right to?

Also, yes, SONY DOES force you to upgrade your firmware on a regular basis, specifically to prevent you doing anything with the hardware you paid for which they don't want you to, whether that's otherOS, non-licensed memory sticks or card readers on those devices that still have readers, etc. That firmware is forcfed to you on newer game disks, or "offered" over the PSN, and in many cases your console will not allow you to play some or all games until you "voluntarily" upgrade the firmware.

and as to reading the EULA? I'll read it when it's written in english. right now it's written strictly in legalese that requires no less than a paralegal to comprehend most sections of.

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Wingzero_x

No EULAs are actually pretty easy to read and understand. You just have to take the time to do so.

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winmaster

No, people did pay for that feature. Purchase of the hardware includes a license to use the firmware. That firmware originally included code from Sony that allowed you to run your own operating system on the device. When that feature was taken away, that license, which was included in the cost of purchasing the hardware, was worth less, but no one was compensated.

 

If you purchase Windows 7 and Microsoft decides that Service Pack 2 will remove the ability to print, and Microsoft says that Windows 7 cannot conntect to the internet unless you update, would Microsoft not be fucking over its customers.

 

These people have a right to be pissed.

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Wingzero_x

Hate to burst your bubble, but Microsoft has been adding and removing features in Windows as well as their other products for years, and it is their right to do so, and they agreed to those stipulations when they clicked "I Agree" when they skipped though the EULA! 

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Eoraptor

yes it is relevant on maxPC, because many people, as it points out above, used PS3's ~AS~ linux PCs.

But this just sets a lovely precedent, doesn't it. You pay hard earned money for something, use it, and then get told "sorry, you know that feature you paid for? you aren't actually entitled to it. YOINK."

Imagine if you bought a car, started driving it around, and then GM came over and said "hey, you remember that radio we installed at the factory? fuck you, we're taking it back. thanks."

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kixofmyg0t

Did Sony put a gun to your head and FORCE you to update to remove OtherOS?

 

No.

 

You CHOSE to update and remove the "feature". Sony removed a "feature" that was ultimately a security vulnerabilty. They have the right to do whatever they want to the software that runs the PS3 WHICH YOU AGREED TO USE UNDER THEIR TERMS.

 

Read the fricken EULA dumbass.

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mesiah

Apparently kix has discovered the secret... Caps lock is easy mode for cool.

 

Kix, I am surprised you could take Sony's balls out of your mouth long enough to see the screen and type your worthless drivel.

 

And, against my better judgement of feeding the troll, yes, Sony does put a gun to your head and force you to update your system. If you want to play a game that was made in the last three years or use psn then you are forced to update.

 

Wether or not otheros was a security risk should not have any bearing over wether Sony has the right to remove features that they sold you. Maybe the car manufacturers should come to your house and remove the gas pedal from your car because you might use it to break the speed limit.

 

Don't be a fool, Just because you want to have Sony's babies doesn't mean you need to come on here and nerd rage until you have an anurism. So go back to playing Uncharted 3 and beating your meat to the Sony logo.

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kixofmyg0t

Awww did your mother help you write all that?

 

Sony never "forced" you to update plain and simple. If you wanted OtherOs that bad you would have kept it instead of choosing to upgrade. It's Sony's(or any manufacter's for that matter if you AGREE to it) right to do whatever you AGREE to let happen.

 

Don't like it? Too damn bad. Quit crying and grow up kid.

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Eoraptor

Don't feed the troll

but yes, they DID force us to upgrade the firmware, more than once. there are several instances, including after the PSN hack, where your machine would not play any game discs at all unless the firmware was upgraded.

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kixofmyg0t

Sony forced you to upgrade? Holy shit dude! they burst up into ur house and put a gun to ur head and said "upgrade and lose Linux or ur whole family dies!"??!?!?

 

No?

 

Did they hack into ur PS3 while ur in Linux and have a creepy shadow headed guy warn you that if you don't upgrade right now ur PS3 will self destruct and set ur house on fire?

 

No?

 

Did Kaz Hirai himself call you and threaten that if you don't upgrade this very instance then ur PS3 would no longer play the games you bought for it?

 

No?

 

Then shut the fuck up.

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joebob

The PS3 is 2006 era hardware at best, I understand the principal of the thing, but really, who cares about using the PS3 as a Linux PC? There are dual core systems than can kick the PS3's butt for general computing and almost any GPU made after 2009 is more than powerful enough to run circles around graphics of the PS3.

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dimitriz

Dont get stuck on just PS3.

It sets precedence on what could come after PS3. Using this Sony can add "nice" features into PS4 or whatever that they will remove after you buy it.

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joebob

No I get the pricipal, I'm just confused about the purpose. Is it the novelty of running Linux on a PS3 the reason you want to do it? Because there has got to be better and/or more secure (as in the manufacturer won't shoot you in the balls) ways to build clusters.

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Scatter

A better comparison would be if you purchased a new car, started driving it around and then GM came over and told you that your Free Sirius/XM was going to be discontinued. 

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kixofmyg0t

I was hoping you were gonna base ur argument in fact rather than "what if's".

 

As in when people bought GM vehicles with early versions of OnStar....which no longer work because they were analog cell based instead of digital.

 

But then I remembered since that was 2008 you were still in diapers.

 

That's a perfect example of buying something with a feature, and that feature is then removed. What's the difference? You can't copy games with OnStar so not a single fuck was given.

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dimitriz

The only problem with that is that when you buy a car you KNOW that Sirius/XM is given to you as a trial for a few month.

Other OS was advertised part of the system.

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DarkMatter

Sony Giveths and then Sony Takeseth away ? Then some enterprising nerds can't put linux on their favorite gaming system ? Lemme tell you something that Judge needs to check himself into the looney bin! Yeah I said it! Hell the AIRFORCE ( One of Americas Millitary limbs ) built a freakin cluster with the first gen systems! TO remove functionality then to penalize the modders for putting it back in is wrong in itself.. Please forgive me if I am on a rant here but the very audacity for this judge to atleast make Sony give the option of what firm ware to download to make such device capable of doing what caused most to flock to the said platform should be highly entertained ( and the judge asked to step down from any further procedings in such cases!)

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Scatter

I don't think that the airforce is too concerned about losing Playstation Network or Blue Ray access. 

If people really want to show Sony that they're unhappy with this decision then they should just agree to purchase Sony products any more. 

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DarkMatter

Sony Giveths and then Sony Takeseth away ? Then some enterprising nerds can't put linux on their favorite gaming system ? Lemme tell you something that Judge needs to check himself into the looney bin! Yeah I said it! Hell the AIRFORCE ( One of Americas Millitary limbs ) built a freakin cluster with the first gen systems! TO remove functionality then to penalize the modders for putting it back in is wrong in itself.. Please forgive me if I am on a rant here but the very audacity for this judge to atleast make Sony give the option of what firm ware to download to make such device capable of doing what caused most to flock to the said platform should be highly entertained ( and the judge asked to step down from any further procedings in such cases!)

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B.A.Frayd

Does anyone here on "Maximum PC" care?

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dimitriz

Yes, I definitely do.

Have 2 PS3s on 3.15

0 games and 0 blu-rays ripped on either.

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Gezzer

I kind of care.

This ruling makes it easier for other companies to do the same. So some piece of hardware I love could get altered by a firmware update that I have no choice but update to.

As for it being the PS3, and I own a "fat" PS3, not one bit. It was a option of dubious worth anyway. Unless you pirate games that is.

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