Closing Arguments Presented in the Pirate Bay Trial
Posted 03/07/09 at 03:31:52 PM by Justin Kerr
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People around the world have been monitoring the Pirate Bay trial with an acute fascination. Bit Torrent has defiantly emerged as the dominate peer-to-peer file sharing method, and its packet based infrastructure has made it very difficult for copyright holders to police. The Pirate Bay represents but one of many Torrent trackers on the net, however a guilty verdict could throw the entire Torrent community to the wolves and ultimately lead to the downfall of its current state. In addition to this, the founders face upwards of two years in prison, as well as a $140,000 USD fine each.
In the final day of the trial, founder Fredrik Neij and his lawyer Jonas Nilsson argued that the underlying technology behind The Pirate Bay is completely legal, and that founders had no intention of violating copyrights. Nilsson also argues that it the prosecution has not proven that the bulk of the material on The Pirate Bay is even copyrighted. “Every site in the world could link to copyright material” Nilsson argues, “this is not a Pirate Bay problem, this is a worldwide internet problem”. In fact, according to evidence presented by Peter Sunde of the Pirate Bay, 80 per cent of the indexed material is in fact non-copyrighted.
The entire Pirate Bay defense rests on the idea that contributors to the site (not the administrators) are responsible for the content, and thus they cannot be held accountable. Additionally, the lawyers argue that the prosecution has failed to show evidence of any proven link between material being downloaded via the internet, and lost sales. The court is now deliberating over the evidence, and a verdict is expected on April 17th.
Do you think the Pirate Bay will survive this one? And if not, what will happen to Bit Torrent?
(Image Credit: Flickr)
Thanks the_klapp
Submitted by rowcall on Mon, 04/13/2009 - 4:06am
Thanks the_klapp.
Your post was the most balanced and rational voice on this issue. If only you could convince the media company lilliputian mind to grasp it.
Submitted by pc_ninja on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 2:06pm
I've said this over and over about downloading software. I don't care that you can't afford your next Mybach, Bently, or whatever other $500K + car or your million dollar home. So if I do download your album, movie, or software oh well. I don't understand why they expect me to pay when there is something just as good that is free or someone that is going to help me get their's for free. DVD's are $20 plus dollars a piece. That is crazy. CD's are just as bad but you can get those pretty cheap on line. I am a downloading fool. Torrent sites are the chuck norris of file sharing and I have personally taught at least 100 people how to use them. Either way all I have to say to these copywrite whining douches is get over it.
Submitted by the_klapp on Fri, 04/03/2009 - 12:25am
I do agree that piracy is theft, same as if I stole your wallet. That said, I use the pirate bay daily. I have completely legal legitimate copies of every version of windows ever released, still in their cases, still with the keys on them. I download "black" versions of windows because the install is smoother, and they generally have a much better assortment of drivers and free software I would otherwise have to find like flash player, java, spybot s&d, avg home free, etc.
I download a lot of TV shows off TPB. I pay for cable, so I would be well within my rights to TiVo copies of movies, music, and tv shows. How exactly is it that a download is wrong, but recording a copy on a videocassette or DVR of the exact same thing is perfectly fine? I don't think it is wrong at all. Downloading tv shows is only an issue because until recently the only way to watch the show was to be at home at 7:00 pm on tuesday night for the show, or to buy a device specifically for recording the show. When the television industry makes it such a pain to watch their programs I feel little sympathy for them losing profits from advertising. Now they have gotten a clue and made Hulu.com, and show some of their shows on their sites.
I download games I find on TPB on occasion. I do this because so many companies turn out such crap products that I flat refuse to pay $50.00 for a piece of crap with spy ware on it. EA Games is an excellent example, 9 out of every 10 games they release is total crap, so I don't trust the brand. On occasion they screw up and make a decent game though, so I download the most likely games to see if I like them. If I do like them, I go out and buy a full legal copy, if not, they are deleted quickly.
Blizzard is a fantastic company. If every game maker used their system securom and others like it would not exist. Starcraft is probably the single most pirated game ever, but it is also one of the highest selling games ever. Go out, look in your store that sells video games, there are very good odds that you will find Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo 2 battle chests on sale today, 10 years after their release, because they were such good games that people still buy them today. Note: none of those games had securom on them. All three are among the top ten best selling pc games ever. I have downloaded copies of all of them. I have also paid for copies of those games. I downloaded copies to burn new disks, I paid for copies to get legal legitimate cd keys to play online. I plan to pay for copies of Diablo3 and Starcraft2.
I download movies because I hate paying $12.00 for a ticket, $5.00 for a drink, $6.50 for popcorn, and $3.00 for a box of stale red vines so I can go spend 1.5 - 3 hours watching a crap movie. If I download a screener of a new movie and it is really good, I go to the theater and spend my $26.50 and enjoy the movie on a big screen. For exceptionally good movies I might go see it in theaters 2 or 3 times. For good movies that are more about the story than the effects, I download the movie, then buy it when it comes out on dvd. There have been some terrible movies released over the years, one or two that left me actually angry not for the money, but for the fact that I had actually given 2 hours of my life to them.
I download music on occasion. I find one of the "my top 500 songs this year" things. I listen to some, and if the music is good, I buy a cd quality copy, whether online or in a music store. Since 90% of the crap that is released is no talent noise I delete most of the music I download.
I download pirated software on rare occasion. Some companies make their software so you can only open files if you have a copy of the exact same program. Turbo tax does this, some office type software does this, and countless others do the same thing. People gripe about how microsoft is evil or a monopoly, or bad for some other reason. Try using linux, see how easy to use and universally compatible with minimal effort required linux is. Try using a mac, see how you pay twice the money to get a machine with half the power of a PC, AND it does not work with a lot of things. If microsoft is a monopoly, it is because they make a better product that is easier to use, more stable, and more versatile than anybody else does. Microsoft has even made suggestions that they may start making some of their programs open source. When software makers start to release their software for free, and only charge for support, shipping/packaging/bandwidth, and advertising they will make just as much money off their products as they do now, because they won't have to spend a large fortune in a futile effort to stop hackers from copying it. They might not have to spend as much money on development because some of those hackers might well decide to help make the software better since they don't have to waste time cracking it.
The entertainment industry is not pissed off because people are downloading their valuable property, they are pissed off because people like me are only buying the good stuff, and letting the crap pass by. They had made it for decades selling absolute trash because nobody had a real way to tell what was junk and what was good. Now these companies are losing a billion or more each year because people refuse to buy stuff they know is crap, and rather than stop making junk, they prosecute the people who host the crap detector.
The entertainment industry and software makers made The Pirate bay when they stopped allowing returns on anything digitally stored (movies, music, software/games). If I go buy a TV, get it home, and it does not start, or does not display colors right, or is otherwise not what I want, I can return that TV. If I buy a DVD, get it home and try to play it, then notice it is an HD DVD, and will not play in my dvd or blu-ray player, I am stuck with it. If I buy a game and it is buggy, has little or no online play, or generally sucks, I'm stuck with it.
The people who run The Pirate Bay, other torrent sites, and newsgroups, are modern day, real life, Super Heroes! They help to protect the world from greed, apathy, ignorance, and lemming syndrome. But like all super heroes, they break laws to do the things that need to be done. Maybe they actually directly break laws, or maybe they just stretch the limits of the laws, but they definitely know that they have done things that many would consider wrong. God bless them for doing that.
Submitted by shdwdragon7 on Wed, 04/08/2009 - 4:16pm
Here Here!!
I though I was the only one who happily spends $30 on a BlueRay after watching a GOOD SCR'er/movie/torrent.
actually Starcraft and
Submitted by nekollx on Fri, 04/03/2009 - 8:44am
actually Starcraft and Diablo (havent booked warcraft in ages so i cant check) have a pretty cripling DRM
you need the cd in the drive to play, even if you do a "complete" install
Submitted by nekollx on Tue, 03/31/2009 - 9:23pm
i'll keep that in mind if you ever produce anything worthwhile you basicly gave me care blance to torrent all your stuff. THANKS!
Submitted by JAshtonX on Wed, 03/18/2009 - 5:08pm
There will always be pirating, I like how stardock looks at it. If the person downloads it who said they were going to actually buy it anyways? So they cant say its a loss of profits just a copy right issue. and some people who download stuff to see it might like it so much they will be influenced into buying a legit copy. I think pirating is good to some extent to weed out bad products from the market.
Pirate Bay
Submitted by Dearnhardt3 on Wed, 03/11/2009 - 6:26am
What if you like a musical artist and you want to listen to the orginal song or early stuff that they don`t relase any more?
Submitted by tehR0XX0Rz on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 5:33pm
I think if you buy a game, you have the right to install it without spyware, viruses, rootkits, SecuROM, and all the other crap EA and others try to ram down our throats. If I bought GTA IV, put it on a shelf then downloaded a playable copy without all the evil crap in it, I think that is reasonable and fair. Anyone who doesn't can kiss my ass.
Submitted by So0o0o0 on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 7:28am
All the pirate bay has done is give us possibility of pirating. Of breaking the law right? how is that any different than a car company making a car that can go 200 km/h, a car company making it possible to break the law? it all depends of what the user uses it for. Pirate bay shouldnt be at fault.
dont put it on the internet
Submitted by Ancelmo on Sun, 03/08/2009 - 7:32pm
i thinkg if you dont want something stolen or pireted dont put it online for the world to access its the world wide web including companys
Submitted by tkphill on Sun, 03/08/2009 - 3:50pm
I have used tpb only a few times mostly for linux iso's but I recently used it to download a copy of turbo tax 2007 only because i had no other choice. I no longer had the cd that i used to install tt2007 and turbo tax did not have it on record that i purchased it although I obviosly did or I wouldn't have the tax file.
My problem was I needed info off my 2007 return but I had no way of opening file without purchasing software again. so yes I did download a copy installed it opened my tax file printed it out my return then deinstalled tt2007 and deleted program. Did I commit a crime ?? dont know and dont really care why should I have to pay full price for a second time for software that I needed for 2 minutes.
Submitted by Queenof1 on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 3:27pm
I agree - why should you have to pay again for software that you have purchased already if something happened to the disk/computer/etc? I think in a situation like this, it's not stealing or "pirating".
If the company in your example TurboTax would have allowed you to d/l software that would expire in say 24 hours, then you would not have to resort to tpb. Unfortunately, there are folks that are using tpb for bad not good and I don't think it's the fault of the creators of this website.
OMG You Dirty Pirate!....
Submitted by Keith E. Whisman on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 5:32am
OMG You Dirty Pirate!.... Those tax professionals are going to starve because you didn't pay for their software...
Not really.. Just kidding... Fake attack... Ha ha ha...
I used www.taxslaher.com this year. It was only $15 bucks and they walk you through itemizing everything. I payed $700 bucks into my fed income tax and I got back $2000. I made $30Large last year but I'm lucky enough to have kids and Bush's tax credits..
Agree
Submitted by GreenTurtle on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 4:51am
I agree. I did the same thing with XP Pro and Microsoft office. My disks were shot (scratched) so I downloaded a new copy and used my existing key. There are good reasons for TPB but I do admit that there are bad points to it too.
Windows 7 beta
Submitted by high_council on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 5:33am
I did the same thing with the beta. I registered as a beta user, but didn't have the hard drive space to download the iso. I had 2 hard drives coming via fedex, but by the time they got here the download time had expired. I did have a legal serial key though, so by downloading the iso through tpb did I commit a crime? The copy I installed is completely legal, registered and activated through Microsoft.
Submitted by Keith E. Whisman on Sun, 03/08/2009 - 7:09am
OK it's OK... I hope Thepiratebay.org survives but it is all about pirating movies and music and software of all kinds. To say otherwise would by lying. I think that most advanced nerds here say class 60 nerds use Bit Torrent a lot. But we also purchase alot of the games that we play and the movies we watch.
OK now who's Ipod is that? I would have thought that a MaximumPC staffer would have been smart enough to protect the finish of HIS/HERS Ipod. Even I bought a hard plastic shell protector for my Ipod when I bought it. My Ipod Classic 80gig looks just as it did when I bought it. The body glove shell is all scratched up though.
Submitted by Asterixx on Sun, 03/08/2009 - 6:33am
Nunc est bibendum!
Netbook.
Netbooknetbooknetbooknetbooknetbook.
There. According to Psion (http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/psion_files_12_billion_countersuit_against_intel_netbook_case), I've just violated their copyright. Repeatedly. And I've used MPC's system to do it. Throw those MPC bastards in jail.
They should be found guilty
Submitted by LordPyro on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 11:45pm
I personally believe that anyone who downloads something copyrighted
is stealing, and should be prosecuted to the utmost of the law.In the case that Pirate Bay says they do not moderate what is posted etc. - That is their own problem.
If you let a felon stay in your house knowing what he has done, you can be prosecuted for harboring a known felon - in this case, TPB should be prosecuted for all the copyrighted material that was stolen because of the service they provided.
Plus, the name of the website itself is kind of self incriminating...
Who cares they make people
Submitted by s3th on Tue, 03/10/2009 - 10:27pm
Who cares they make people happy and make some people mad noone is always going to be happy all the time, pirating or not, so it would be different if everyone pirated but only a few do in the world out of 6 billion people. About 1 billion peple have computers so I think the industries are going to be okay if a few thousand programs get pirated out of the other thousands that actually pay.
Also TPB is right if people upload stuff and then download it they are not the problem its the people who pirate it to begin with and make it able for others to download, TPB is just a middle man, and even though the name kind of provokes Pirating, their not telling you to Pirate because if you don't your wrong. They say if you don't want any problems when Pirating buy the software to begin with.
I've downloaded many things
I hope they continue to be there, GOOD LUC\K PIRATE BAY!
Submitted by KaylaKaze on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 11:09pm
If TPB loses, the internet is destroyed, pure and simple. Even if there IS a law that says knowingly telling someone where they can go to get something illegal to download is illegal, it's a law that needs to be struck down, no matter WHAT country you live in. Personally, I take issue with the concept that anything downloaded from TPB can be classified as copyrighted. How can you hold copyright on a number? Is 3 copyrighted? Is 28276490327304843902303? How big must a number be before it's copyrightable? If 8398340938439494740 is copyrightable, is the expression 839834093843949474 times 10 copyrighted as well? If running x through an algorithm and arriving at y, with y being a copyrighted work, is x copyrighted as well? Or is x only copyrighted if you say x is y run through f(y)? If you don't tell anyone that x is related to y, is it still illegal?
Submitted by fspikec on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 8:25pm
Normally, I have no issue with buying music/video/software. But now, with all this b/s DRM that makes the stuff you buy unusable, I rather try to get a copy of it with no DRM. No matter if I have to pay for it or not.
The fact of the matter being
Submitted by I Jedi on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 7:01pm
The fact of the matter being is that the people who orginally started TPB are in no way responsible for any illegal torrents that were placed on the site. They are not responisble for the content posted on the site, as they state, and should not be held accountable for the actions of the thousands of individuals out there who put up illegal torrents on TPB.
Rather the Defense (TPB) whole heartly knew there were illegal torrents on their site is a matter that cannot be proven by anybody, nor should it come into question as clearly they cannot be held responsible... For they clearly state that they are not moderators of TPB.. No one is as far as I know.
Convicting them of this crime will not resolve the overlaying issue, which is the theft of software, movies, music and more that is done every single day of every minute of every hour on TPB, or other websites that host torrents. Do I believe that the Defense should be held responsible and accountable for the actions of thousands who whole heartly knew they were uploading illegal content? No. If I were the Judge in this court case, then I would aquit them of all charges, as it would be clearly irrefutable that they had no part in any illegal activties, but merely had their site abused by individuals whom they could not control and would not because the Defense clearly states that they WILL NOT monitor the website.
Submitted by Spider-Mom on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 8:13pm
What ever you say internet-cop. Only problem being, they dont need to be responsible for any of it to be guilty of conspiracy.
people pirate software
Submitted by pepper_roni on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 7:53pm
people pirate software because no one ever gets caught... imagine if the people at piratebay got jailtime and more started to follow it would make you think twice.... no this will not solve the problem but it doesnt mean they should be allowed to run.
Submitted by I Jedi on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 9:13pm
I understand where it is that you're coming from with this idea to do conspiracy and how from the very beginning they probably knew that this was going to happen. I still stand by them because of this, though. They said that they would NOT moderate their own site because of whatever reason, if they had one at all. Therefore, it is not their fault that illegal content was posted on their site, but rather the individuals out there who did so free of will. If it wasn't TPB, it would of been somewhere else. Take down TPB and you'll still have more... Take thsoe more down and you'll still just have MORE to go after.
I support The Pirate Bay because of this reason alone. I believe that companies have fucked over their consumers so much with DRM, Securom, etc, etc, ETC.... and that keeping prices high while having these said restrictions and/or more is only reason enough to boycott companies products. I do NOT believe in stealing, but I do believe in why people turn to sites like TPB because of repeatly being screwed over by companies again and again and again. There will ALWAYS be pirating no matter what. But by not screwing over your end consumer, you're ensuring that you keep a loyal customer base and reducing how much your software is pirated. Reward your customer, don't punish. And you will begin to see a reduction, I would believe, in the number of pirated versions of your software being stolen.
Futhermore, I pay for my stuff. ALL OF IT... I HATE doing so, too, sometimes.... It frustrates the hell out of me that I buy a game that has DRM-limits (Mass Effect) writen all over it or Securom on it... Its on my computer, won't get off easily... Who do I turn to for my games, though? Steam... Thank God there is an actual company that DOESN'T screw their customer over... I turn to Amazon.com for non-DRM music... Thank GOD there is a company that doesn't screw over the customer....And if I may even go further with this rant... Steam has shown us that if a company rewards their customers, rather than leave them for dead, or L4D... Then people are less likely to steal games from them. That's how you reduce piracy.
Submitted by sasquatch42 on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 6:44pm
tpb will survive no matter the outcome
in the situation that tpb loses, BitTorrent will survive. BTW, doesn't Blizzard use Bittorrent for WoW, that should keep it alive no matter what
Submitted by Spider-Mom on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 8:15pm
Yeah, just like how ShareReactor did so well after they were raided and had all there computers taken away rite? This has absolutly nothing at all to do with BT BTW.
Submitted by GreenTurtle on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 5:05pm
With the prices some of the "software" companies charge it makes me wonder who the real crooks are. $600 for an "ultimate" office suite. HA!
TPB
Submitted by dankers on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 4:32pm
If they didn't intend the site for dowloading of copyrighted material why did they call it The "Pirate" Bay. I think people would have more sympathy if they had called it something else. They have been flaunting their activities for years and even had a page dedicated to all the legal letters they recieved.
Submitted by nekollx on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 4:46pm
it'scalled the Pirate Bay as a joke. Torents were always considered 'evil' so TpB was named as such as a sort of "fuck you" to idiot oppinion
Submitted by Spider-Mom on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 8:16pm
Torrents WERE NOT always considered evil.
Submitted by dankers on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 5:21pm
Thank you Captain Obvious.
Submitted by mlee19 on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 5:44pm
If you are going to rant then fine, but at least do it correctly! It is "Their" not "There." "Their" means possession so try to keep that in mind next time buddy, alright?
In actuallty, if they do lose, it will only worsen things. You bring one torrent site down, 10 more pop up.
Submitted by dankers on Sun, 03/08/2009 - 1:28pm
I have read over the previous comments several times and cannot find a misuse of the word there. "They have been flaunting their activities..." seems to be the correct usage of the word. It's possible I'm just missing it.
Submitted by InAbsentia on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 8:50pm
In actuallty?......you are a moron.
Submitted by GreenTurtle on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 4:43am
Do you mean "in actuality" or "actually" ? If you are going to call someone a moron, you should learn to spell. LOL!!!! I do agree though, I can't find the previous spelling issue.....not that it really matters though. I think we get the gist, it happens.
Submitted by quebert on Tue, 03/10/2009 - 1:05am
I dislike the grammar & spelling Nazi's on the Internet, but alas this is too good of a chance to pass up. You call a person out for not knowing how to spell, yet they didn't even misspell what you LOL'ed at them for. Hard to believe not one, but TWO of you had the balls to critique another user for their proper use of a word. In fact actuality is a word, it is spelled correctly, and the context in which he used it was right. Where had he said "in actually" or "actually" like you suggested, it wouldn't be quite right. As for your ill attempt to insult him, you should take your own advice and "learn to spell LOL!!!!" Because "in actuality" you're the one who's wrong here. I suggest you go to dictionary.com and look up the word actuality, you will find it's a real word, was spelled properly, and was use correctly here.
Submitted by GreenTurtle on Tue, 03/10/2009 - 4:59pm
Like I said, who really cares we get the gist. But "ACTUALLTY" is the correct spelling? o.O
I agree with you, it happens. Slip of the fingers and all that.
Besides, I read the thread wrong, and have officially become..........."the moron" :(
Submitted by pepper_roni on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 3:57pm
Only a few retarded laws keep them safe. But all that site for is piracy and stealing is stealing.... Then they expect you to buy there dumbass shirts. If you go by there logic everything should be free and it just doesnt work that way.
Submitted by GreenTurtle on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 5:11pm
" all that site's for is stealing"? It says right in the article that 80% of the material is non-copyright. How do you steal that?
Besides, I download Linux off "that site" and other open source software like open office. So don't tell me that site is "just for stealing".
Submitted by pepper_roni on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 7:51pm
most is for stealing the only stuff I find on there is pirated games music software and movies... so theres the 1 percent of people that use it for linux and WoW. So if the site is not for piracy then they should remove all pirated content. Stealing is stealing, the idea is that everyone should get farcry for free... its ok ill steal it because somone else will buy it and give the developer money. We'll if the piratebay's "dream" comes true. Everyone uses there site and then there is no more games cause no one can pay for them. File sharing is ok. But dont give me that crap that piratebay is all about linux and game patches.
Submitted by nekollx on Mon, 03/09/2009 - 9:39am
maybe you use TPB to steal shit but your are not everyone.
I Bought Starcraft Brood wars
I bought Spore Creature Creator
I bought XP Pro
but i get the files of of TPB because the DISC i BOUGHT is scuff and unreadable or has securtrogen on the disc i will not let install on my laptop
i dont think theyre guilty.
Submitted by Yusonice on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 3:10pm
i dont think theyre guilty. Instead pirate bay should release the IP for those who use their site and maybe after 10 years of chasing the people who uses pirate bay, they people should be charged instead.
Submitted by topshooter on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 2:38pm
they should get the death penalty? are you sick? thankfuly sweden is not mob rule...
you seem outraged over people downloading copies of compiled text...I cant imagine your rage over actual theft!
Submitted by repoman88 on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 2:34pm
Really? The death penalty? You'd kill off half the world's population because they stole some music?
Whether they Win or Lose,
Submitted by Netram on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 2:18pm
Whether they Win or Lose, TPB will survive. Possibly be made even more popular by the trial.
Pirates should get the death penalty though, I'm fed up of them trying to justify what they do. I haven't yet heard a valid reason on why piracy should be legal / go without punishment.
Submitted by Edwincnelson on Sat, 03/07/2009 - 8:00pm
I have spent a lot of time on TPB. I have downloaded a bunch of things on TPB. TPB is there for the purpose of downloading movies, music, and software that is being shared illegally. I know it, you know it, and everyone who is involved in running the site knows it. TPB knew this day might come, and they took their chances by continuing down this path. Looking at the history of this court they are in a lot of trouble.
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