AMD says Nvidia’s Gameworks is “A Clear and Present Threat to Gamers”

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sdcat

The Game developer should make Nvidia version and AMD version for all the games, then we gamers won't have any issues at all. All we have to do is to buy 2 copies of the same game for each card in case we ever switch to another card. If that's the case, why do we have Direct 3D, Open GL ...etc.?

@Jeffredo
"And the AMD consumes more power with that smaller chip and still has lower performance. How does that work?"

Let me ask you this in real life work situation, why someone work slower but can get more things done compare to someone works faster and get less things done?

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Jeffredo

From the reviews I've read AMD cards are performing no worse given the specific GPU's class/power than Nvidia cards. The game's an unoptimized mess for all.

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Slug Jones

Christ...even in the PC world we have fanboys. The Nvidia fanboy's are strong here. I use AMD and love the card. Cheaper and often outperforms Nvidia's counterpart. Nvidia has the most powerful cards though...but it will cost you. I just hate seeing those who lockstep with ANY one thing. Game console, GPU brand CPU, political party....etc. You're a zombie and cant think for yourself.

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limitbreaker

The Nvidia cards are only more powerful because Nvidia is using a giant chip, size for size they're much slower. The gtx780ti has a die size of 561mm2 while the R9 290x has a die size of 438mm2. Considering that, amd had a much more powerful gpu.

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Jeffredo

And the AMD consumes more power with that smaller chip and still has lower performance. How does that work?

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Ghost XFX

AMD could help themselves by making a better product, instead of pointing fingers at their competitor...

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cj100570

The crew over at PC Perspective discussed this issue on their most recent podcast, you should check it out, and the fact of the matter is that AMD is either ignorant or blatantly lying/spreading FUD.

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The Mac

There have been many discussions on many sites onboth sides of the argument.

The only FUD ive seen is the nvidia camp trying to claim Hallock has accused them of shady behavior.

At no point in his interview he do so.

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The Mac

double post.

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John Pombrio

AMD just released "Mantle", a tool to give AMD cards a decided advantage in running games. Does THAT run on NVidia cards? Yet AMD complains that NVidia's tools don't work right on AMD cards?

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The Mac

completly unrelated.

Mantle is a separate render path and API, like OGL. It has no effect on DX.

Gameworks are Dx extensions, if the devs use it, and nvidia fucks with them they can nerf everyone but their own cards. Mantle for now is only on two games, so you still have to use DX for everything else.

AMD cannot nerf anyone else with mantle.

Gameworks, by its nature is a "black box" to anyone except the licensee, which is what the true complaint is. If you cant see it, its very difficult to optimize around it.

Hallock (Thracks for any of you who troll the gpu hardware forums) hasn't really accused Nvidia of doing anything shady, just that its a bad idea in general just due to its nature and difficulty working around

Everyone has really blown this out of proportion...

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maleficarus™

Same shit different pile bud.. Nice try though...

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acidic

all i hear is wah wah wah from amd. they got bitch smacked by nvidia's responce. it is just amd's attempt at PR drivel. the game is highly unoptimized and once that is taken care of, then we can see who is on top. until then write better drivers

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yu119995

Oh I get it. You didn't actually read the article.

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Rebel_X

What really surprises me is the fact that I read the word "Shenanigans" 3 times already in these shenanigan posts. Now make that 5 times :)

AMD is right, shame on you NVIDIA :< Nvidia's cards are great, but I never seen a problem with AMD either (+ a lot cheaper) But I always think of AMD as the protagonist in Hollywood movies that gets beaten up and emerges victorious at the end while the villain (:cough: Nvidia) is defeated. Probably that what will happen, mark my words :>

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ApathyCurve

AMD (ne ATI) is and always has been a marginal producer of second-rate products. ATI cards have always been substandard parts, their drivers have always sucked and continue to suck. They can hop around and windmill their arms about Nvidia all they want, but the fact remains that AMD/ATI is now and always will be an also-ran in the graphics card market. I base this observation on twenty five years of system building and real hands-on experience with dozen of products from both companies. In the case of ATI, I started with the Wonder cards and ended with the Radeons. Crap and crap. All crap. Save your breath, ATI fanboys. Your "arguments" are null and void in the face of nearly three decades of crap-in-a-box.

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topmech71

40% of the market and these guys are also rans. Wow that's brilliant...the posts I see here are unbelievable. AMD puts out a solid product and cheaper than nvidia and intel. The only reason intel's processors are ahead is because of their larger R&D program, and AMD puts a little more focus in the graphics area. The work that AMD is doing on their APU systems with integrated graphics is amazing....allowing gamers to game at a very affordable price with much better energy consumption.

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John Pombrio

I still have a AMD graphic card in the house (sitting in a drawer). But I had enough troubles with my 5 ATI/AMD cards (mostly driver issues and two cards that died on me in 6 months) that I realized that I felt AMD was sliding down a poor driver/reliability curve that I did not like. since then I have only bought EVGA NVidia cards for the past 3 years and have been rewarded by good drivers and reliable cards. I donno if I just had bad luck or hit a patch where AMD was having driver/reliability problems, but it was just enough to get me to switch. If NVidia has the same run in the future, then I may switch back.

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Alpha-Zulu

I smell an Nvidia fanboi.

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CaptainFabulous

Riiiight, and that's why both Sony and Microsoft chose an AMD product instead of an Nvidia one when they designed their consoles. And in the case of Microsoft, not once, but TWICE. Sony, having used an Nvidia GPU in the PS3 opted for and AMD chip in the PS4. I wonder why that is if Nvidia is sooooo great?

And did you miss the part about how AMD has 40% of the addon GPU market? For a company that sucks as bad as you say they certainly are doing quite well for themselves.

Or maybe you're just an Nvidia shill/fanboi who is incapable of seeing reality. Either way, your comment is nonsense.

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NoGoN

CapFab stfu what a dumb comment. First off I literally spend 5-6k a year on new computer parts or builds cause its what I do. ATI has always been a problem and everyone I know has had problems with ATI. There drivers are easily among the worst and the products always lack in performance and or break down. Second do you know why they took AMD over Nvidia? Obviously you dont it had nothing to do with reliability. Nvidia asked for to much money and they decided to go with the super cheap AMD. That doesnt make AMD good in any way it just means they had a better offer and won. And Nvidia owns the GPU market and always has AMD will always be playing catch up since everyone hates there worthless drivers. Bring real facts next time bro cause you are brain dead.

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CaptainFabulous

There is absolutely ZERO proof of your claim of AMD driver problem any more than there are Nvidia driver problems. Sorry, but your self-indulgent faux rage anecdotal evidence is worthless.

And yes, Microsoft and Sony went with AMD because they could provide a fully-functional high performance part at an unbeatable price. Nvidia cannot compete because they do not have the ability to manufacture x86 parts and neither company was interested in a Tegra platform. Soooo... the best company won. Nvidia GPU products are at best marginally better than AMD's (at a significant cost premium), so why would Microsoft and Sony want to jump thru hoops and deal with a separate CPU/GPU solution when AMD can provide them with an all-in-one that can easily match the performance of a much more expensive Nvidia/Intel product?

I mean, that's how business works, doesn't it?

And it must be hard to say "Nvidia owns the GPU market" with a straight face, since they only have 60% of it. That's just a tad more than half. Hardly "owned".

But go on, tell me more about how wonder Nvidia is. I love good fairy tales!

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The Mac

The nerdrage is strong in this fanboi...

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The Mac

never had a single problem, hardware or otherwise with the dozens of ATI/AMD gpus ive both owned and installed for my customers in the 2 decades ive been building computers...

Never had any problem with Nvidia either.

You sound like a fanboi.

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cisx

Me too..another nvidia fanboy!!!!!!!!

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The Mac

Mantle is a completely separate render path. It has no bearing on dx whatsoever.

Gameworks on the other hand are proprietary dx runtime libraries that directly effect dx.

What the nvidia guy fails to say is that sure, the devs can show their own code to whoever they want, but they are prohibited from giving out gameworks code. Its licensed.

So he's full of it.

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CaptainFabulous

And Nvidia behaving badly surprises who? Um, no one. They've been behaving badly for the better part of a decade. With their Tegra line drying up and no way to compete in the x86 market the only thing they have to hold onto is their aftermarket GPU line. And even that they're barely holding a lead. So it's no surprise they're going to use whatever trickery they can dream up to bolster their position in any way possible. They're desperate.

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AFDozerman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ

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CaptainFabulous

I couldn't have said it better myself.

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vrmlbasic

+1.

Mr. Linux there is spot-on.

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satanforaday

Could not say it any better....

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Innomasta

Anyone remember Tomb Raider?

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Eoraptor

Normally I take any complaint like this with two or three grains of salt. but the bit about Direct3d caught my eye... when a company takes down what is just a step shy of industry standard, and replaces it with a "call us, well talk" link instead, it definitely smells of something not very above-board. That would be like trying to build a Geocities page back in 1998 and instead of seeing standard examples of HTML code, instead seeing a "contact us now to lock in licenses!" link.

it's not good for the bottom line because it teaches customers and partners to fear needing help for costs involved, and it's definitely detrimental to the industry as whole because it fractures the accepted standards that make gaming as an industry universal and profitable.

that all said AMD/ATI is hardly the one qualified to cast the first stone, they have tried similar hyper-optimized shenanigans in the past too.

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Impulseman48

Excuse me, this is the same thing AMD is pulling with Mantle. So Nvidia made a few exclusive deals with a few game makers. AMD did the exact same thing under Mantle. So no one can point the finger at the other and accuse anything of a sort. The point is this, Nvidia cards have been proven to be the more stable and reliable cards period. They are very good about driver updates and their support is tops. If AMD/ATI would at least listen to their customers and deliver drivers that actually do what they are suppose to do than maybe the whole issue would go away. I have had both Nvidia and ATI/AMD cards and I can tell you my experience is this. ATI/AMD cards run hotter, their cooling systems fail, and the cards die allot more often than Nviida cards do. I still have an old Geforce 4800ti and even though nothing much can be played on it these days, the darn thing still works fine. More than I can for the two dead ATI 9700 and 9600 cards of the same time period, may they rest in piece.

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Xenite

Please stop talking, you have no idea what you are talking about. Mantle is a low level API and Nvidia could take advantage of it if they wanted, AMD is making it completely open, just like TressFX and everything else AMD does.

Nvidia is anti competition and has been for years, just more bullshit in a long ling of bullshit from that company. Why I will NEVER support them or buy a single product from Nvidia.

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John Pombrio

If Mantle only works on certain ATI/AMD cards, how could it possibly be run by another vendors cards?

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The Mac

it only works on AMD cards right now because its in closed beta.

once they complete it and open it up, anyone can write a driver for it as long as your harware is functionally similar.

Nvidia hardware is, intel probably not, but they could still do it.

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nick779

Xenite you really are a poster child for AMD fanboyism. Im all for competition, but ive had my fair share of AMD problems and will probably support them again. My first Nvidia card has given me absolutely no issues that werent resolved in a week or two and im getting the performance I expect.

Im contemplating between a 780ti, and glancing at a 290x but honestly looking at overclock.net's AMD forums, they have multiple issues with drivers and stability which I WILL NOT waste time and money dealing with.

AMD cards can mine and thats about it. If you own AMD you're probably spending half the time you own the card troubleshooting various errors.

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CaptainFabulous

Ridiculous. I've owned AMD cards for more than half a decade and have never had to spend any time troubleshooting them. Too bad I can't say the same for my Nvidia-based laptop that went belly up in 15 months, or the multiple 6xxx, 7xxx, and 8xxx series cards I've had to send back for replacements (XFX and EGA lifetime warranty, yo!), not to mention the GT220 card I bought specifically for PhysX processing only to find out that Nvidia disables that feature in the driver if you're using an AMD card as your primary GPU. So nice of them to dictate how I can and cannot use the hardware I own.

And let's be clear. I am not an AMD fanboi. I simply HATE Nvidia and will NEVER buy anything that contains their products. They have burned every bridge and every ounce of consumer good will I have. Their antics are shameful, and their hardware not much better.

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nick779

I envy you then, because Id like to not have to spend $700 to get marginally better performance than a 290x, but AMD's burned their bridges with me numerous times and I just dont want to deal with more potential problems. Theres always a chance though that something can change my mind such as proof that there arent nearly any problems with the drivers.

I cant blame nvidia for the whole physx card issue because having 2 different drivers I would think would cause problems, not to mention that I really, REALLY doubt a gt220 is powerful enough for that depending on what GPU youre using.

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limitbreaker

I agree with you captainRainbow, I sold the gtx780 when they released the ti version because Nvidia intentionally sold me a nerfed chip when they could have started off with the full chip to begin with. I have a 3d vision kit but I'm going to sell them for a 4k and I'll stick with amd from here on out.

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Innomasta

You can't heat your house with a current gen Nvidia card. Just sayin.

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maleficarus™

Shut up AMD fanboy...

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big_montana

And look who is calling the kettle black here, Nvidia fan boy.

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LatiosXT

If this were like AMD and Intel back in 2000s, I would be a little upset with NVIDIA, since they're both targeting essentially the same architecture.

But this is two competing architectures. Sure they're working towards the same goal, but two competing architectures none the less. And here's the thing, if NVIDIA provides tools and solutions that are easy to use, get the job done, and allow delivery of a product within the deadline, then they did something well, regardless of this whole "open source" "freedom" crusade. If AMD did the same exact thing, they wouldn't be complaining so much.

Of course if NVIDIA was doing under the table deals to game devs, effectively bribing them to optimize for their chipset and not AMD's, then we have a problem. But you have to prove that first. But all I see right now is "we can't offer a solution that competes, this is unfair" from AMD.

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CaptainFabulous

Well they've already done that with PhysX. Nvidia pays companies to put PhysX into their games and then refuses to license the technology to AMD or even allow hardware PhysX processing on a secondary Nvidia card if the primary is AMD.

So they already have a history of underhanded backroom dealings and unfair market manipulation. It's not much of a stretch to think they'd continue the practice even further.

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AFDozerman

It's more than just "we can't offer a solution that competes, this is unfair". NV is purposefully hampering AMD's performance in libraries that they provided to not just devs of particular games, but entire engines. They're purposefully pushing code into the market with a "kill AMD switch" and AMD naturally isn't happy about that. When AMD released an entire new API to the industry, they were completely open and transparent about it. Nvidia had a choice to implement it if they wanted to, but chose not to, and are choosing to purposefully block AMD out.

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LatiosXT

An API that is completely open and transparent but has no benefit to me is just that, it has no benefit to me.

Again, AMD could make their set of libraries that devs can plug into their game engines. But they don't. Or they do and political shenanigans are what's keeping them out. Because as far as NVIDIA's product page goes, GameWorks only affects the visuals and physics. If you want to claim it extends beyond that and into the core engine code that prevents nobody else but NVIDIA's code from working on it, prove it.

I feel AMD is trying to play the role of "better PR" than NVIDIA with all of their promotions and finger pointing. But the thing is, more people than not agree that AMD's products don't deliver. That's all I care about. I don't care what agenda you want to push, if your products aren't delivering, then there's no weight behind those words.

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kevaskous

This is the crap that makes me refuse to buy their products. It's not that their cards are good or bad, or having or missing features. Or current driver support, that stuff is all relative to the time you look. it goes back and fourth.

This crap does not, it's anti competitive and i really think they need to be sued from every direction. The Developers, the customers, AMD, -everyone- until they stop or die, completely unacceptable and really hurts the devs and us the most. AMD -or- Nvidia the bottom line effects us, and PC gaming as a whole.

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devin3627

i am an AMD fan, but there is a BIG reason i don't get their videocards anymore... they are buggy as hell!!!!!! they would always freeze and amd seems to be arrogant that their product works fine and they don't focus on fixing the bugs. they are too busy making drivers for lunix.